Connection between yeast overgrowth and nutrition
Hi everyone,
I have done a little research about dog food, because I am suspecting Djamila to have a light yeast problem.
I also searched the forum for related discussions but did not find anything that really answers my questions.
So, Steve, if you already have such a discussion going on, I would be happy to get moved there with my questions.
Currently the yeast thing with Djamila is not a real problem, but I know it can become one and summer is the best time for it. So I am just doing my homework. And hope this discussion may also help others.
I was actually surprised when I realized that with kibble I am choosing a plant based food over the meat based alternative of canned or raw food.
Please don't laugh. I know, it’s kind of logical if you think about it, but I had not exactly looked at it from that perspective before.
There’s only fat, protein and carbohydrates as possible ingredients with nutritional value. These have to origin from somewhere. Somehow I was under the false believe that in general there is far more meat contained in the “good” kibble dog foods.
But my study on dogfoodadvisor says something else.
It would probably ruin the status of kibble as the more affordable alternative to canned or raw food.
As for the carbohydrates, sure, they need to come from somewhere. Meats are no source of carbohydrates.
There mostly seems to be potato, sweet potato....or rice and sometimes oatmeal in use, which brings us back to grains.
Some manufacturers use a significant amount of peas and there sure are more plant-based carbohydrate sources.
As far as I have found out, the difference between good and bad food kibble seems to boil down to animal by-products (bones, skin, hooves, feet, euthanized pets, antibiotics and other "poison") absent in the up-scale foods.
And as a second factor not the pure use of grains as fillers seems to be important itself. It seems to be rather about the exact amount (> overuse in cheap foods) contained in the food. Also the type of contained grain seems to play a role. Rice and oatmeal seem to be present also in good foods, while high amounts of corn and wheat seem to be the preferred grains in low-cost kibble.
Low cost kibble also often seems to contain soy, which is a known allergy trigger not only in pets.
Bottom line: Even in the upscale kibble it is impossible to avoid plants as the carb donators. So I can obviously avoid or reduce some allergy triggers with upscale kibble food by completely avoiding grains.
But that does not necessarily mean that I can avoid problems with yeast overgrowth this way. Because potatoes and rice are on the list of nutrients that yeast is said to feed from (basically everything that contains starch to my knowledge, because it can be transferred into sugars and that feeds yeast).
A more exact declaration of the ingredients like in human food would probably help a lot to find the food with the fitting ratio of ingredients to confront or avoid certain problems.
As it is now the only solution to food-based yeast overgrowth would be to switch the diet to raw or at least up-scale canned. Because of the higher water and fat content I would assume that there is a little lower ratio of potatoes and other carbohydrate fillers per serving contained.
But that's only guessing. It’s also guessing that the development of yeast overgrowth also depends on the amount of carbohydrates in the food.
So far I see no need to switch food for Djamila. I have stopped giving her fruits as a treat and leftover pasta, rice or potatoes. Also I stopped giving her the training treats I formerly used, because they contain sugar. I can’t really tell, if this already helps a lot. I’ve been treating her paws and ears for some time now with antibiotic and antifungal ointment and ACV.
But as I read all the time, the yeast takes a lot of time to vanish.
Still all of the information I found made me think.
Does anyone know, if I am drawing the right conclusions here or am completely mislead?
I have done a little research about dog food, because I am suspecting Djamila to have a light yeast problem.
I also searched the forum for related discussions but did not find anything that really answers my questions.
So, Steve, if you already have such a discussion going on, I would be happy to get moved there with my questions.
Currently the yeast thing with Djamila is not a real problem, but I know it can become one and summer is the best time for it. So I am just doing my homework. And hope this discussion may also help others.
I was actually surprised when I realized that with kibble I am choosing a plant based food over the meat based alternative of canned or raw food.
Please don't laugh. I know, it’s kind of logical if you think about it, but I had not exactly looked at it from that perspective before.
There’s only fat, protein and carbohydrates as possible ingredients with nutritional value. These have to origin from somewhere. Somehow I was under the false believe that in general there is far more meat contained in the “good” kibble dog foods.
But my study on dogfoodadvisor says something else.
It would probably ruin the status of kibble as the more affordable alternative to canned or raw food.
As for the carbohydrates, sure, they need to come from somewhere. Meats are no source of carbohydrates.
There mostly seems to be potato, sweet potato....or rice and sometimes oatmeal in use, which brings us back to grains.
Some manufacturers use a significant amount of peas and there sure are more plant-based carbohydrate sources.
As far as I have found out, the difference between good and bad food kibble seems to boil down to animal by-products (bones, skin, hooves, feet, euthanized pets, antibiotics and other "poison") absent in the up-scale foods.
And as a second factor not the pure use of grains as fillers seems to be important itself. It seems to be rather about the exact amount (> overuse in cheap foods) contained in the food. Also the type of contained grain seems to play a role. Rice and oatmeal seem to be present also in good foods, while high amounts of corn and wheat seem to be the preferred grains in low-cost kibble.
Low cost kibble also often seems to contain soy, which is a known allergy trigger not only in pets.
Bottom line: Even in the upscale kibble it is impossible to avoid plants as the carb donators. So I can obviously avoid or reduce some allergy triggers with upscale kibble food by completely avoiding grains.
But that does not necessarily mean that I can avoid problems with yeast overgrowth this way. Because potatoes and rice are on the list of nutrients that yeast is said to feed from (basically everything that contains starch to my knowledge, because it can be transferred into sugars and that feeds yeast).
A more exact declaration of the ingredients like in human food would probably help a lot to find the food with the fitting ratio of ingredients to confront or avoid certain problems.
As it is now the only solution to food-based yeast overgrowth would be to switch the diet to raw or at least up-scale canned. Because of the higher water and fat content I would assume that there is a little lower ratio of potatoes and other carbohydrate fillers per serving contained.
But that's only guessing. It’s also guessing that the development of yeast overgrowth also depends on the amount of carbohydrates in the food.
So far I see no need to switch food for Djamila. I have stopped giving her fruits as a treat and leftover pasta, rice or potatoes. Also I stopped giving her the training treats I formerly used, because they contain sugar. I can’t really tell, if this already helps a lot. I’ve been treating her paws and ears for some time now with antibiotic and antifungal ointment and ACV.
But as I read all the time, the yeast takes a lot of time to vanish.
Still all of the information I found made me think.
Does anyone know, if I am drawing the right conclusions here or am completely mislead?
Comments
This is an interesting topic and I look forward to hearing what others have to offer.
Thanks for the tip!
At the moment we're good with mixing Blue Wilderness kibble and Darwin's raw food for a higher meat content.
I still appreciate the suggestion and looked up Merrick's 96 percent meat. Sounds like a real good quality food. I'll keep that in mind, just in case.
Did you go through severe health issues too with your Bully? You have obviously already tried quite a few different foods.
http://www.orijen.ca/products/dog-food/dry-dog-food/adult-dog/
Orijen makes Acana. We tried Acana instead of Orijen because one shop told us the food is so rich in protein that it causes loose stools in a lot of the dogs they groom. Our BT (my second BT) is a rescue that we've had for 4 1/2 months. I have no clue what his diet was like prior to his rescue. The breeder had him until my husband could drive to get him. He was underweight and the breeder did a fantastic job of getting his weight up very nicely--he was on TOTW salmon, grizzly oil, NuVet Plus, and fresh steak (lucky dog!). After a couple of weeks, his stools were loose, so one feed store pushed us away from TOTW and we tried Merrick grain free kibble, duck. It was even looser, so we then tried Victor grain free. He just didn't like Victor, but I chalk it up to it being his individual system. Next, we tried Acana grain free regionals and Fromms grain free and finally his poop was firm. We stuck with Acana and continue to give him the grizzly oil and NuVet Plus that we get from the link at Bullies of NC. http://bulliesofnc.com/online-store/supplements-vitamins
There's a guy that I talk with that has a shop, and he had recommended PureVita when we first got him. I have a bag of their grain free that I've given Rodney every now and then and he seems to like it, but we didn't switch in the end because the Acana is working so well.
Prior to switching to Acana, Rodney started with what we thought was demodectic mange, but the vet said he's positive it's not that. He's been on hydroxyzine (antihistamine) and we bumped up the NuVet Plus to twice a day for 45 days to boost his immune system as the NuVet Plus rep suggested to me. His coat is looking better since switching to Acana and adding the antihistamine and doubling the supplement. Pumpkin has also helped tremendously with some fiber. It's kept in a container in the refrigerator, and he goes wild when he sees it because he loves the taste and that it's cool on hot summer days. His nose is orange from licking the bowl clean he loves it so much.
The reason we're going to try the Orijen is because he still has some red rash and spots that look like teen acne. The lady at the doggy spa has a white bull dog and she said he looked just like Rodney until she switched her dog to Orijen six fish. We will probably get a small bag and see if poops stay the same and he actually likes the food. If it doesn't work out, we'll stay with Acana. We've been trying out new kibble for the rash (that seems to be improving) and the loose stools. Both are finally getting better, but the rash and spots are still a problem for him.
Djamilas condition has started to develop when the summer started to become really moist and hot here in Florida. So I really have no clue, if we are talking about the same conditions here or not. There are so many factors involved. But I think exchanging thoughts can only be helpful.
DermaPet" Benzoyl Peroxide Plus Shampoo (DermaBenSS) (12oz) and Vet Solutions Lime Sulfur Dip (4 oz)
How often are you using it? Does it have a strong smell that I'll need to watch out for or any other tips?
@Djammy thank you for opening up this thread. It's very helpful to me, too. Thanks for the link. For Rodney, I really need his freedom harness. He is too strong when I walk him alone. I had a horrible injury a couple of years ago and was in physical therapy for a year learning how to walk again. Once, even with the harness, he pulled hard and I fell in the street, luckily didn't get hit by a car. I wound up back in therapy for a month and couldn't walk him for weeks. My kids got home from college over the summer a few weeks around the same time, so I'm able to walk him alone again without any problems as long as I use the harness. Long story short, I'm going to have to have something to control him since I can't use my feet for leverage to pull him. I'll look online to see if maybe there's a harness that has all plastic clips. Seems like it has to be somewhat common of an allergy, but maybe a lot of people don't narrow it down as the source of the allergen. In the meantime, we loosened it a lot so that it's just barely tight enough that he won't squeeze out of it.
@Djammy have you found a disinfectant that you've had luck with, or will the shampoo that Phil uses be the same?
I think Etiderm will help a lot... wash every night for the first week.... better chance of the residue staying on overnight
Please let me know.
(I don't know anything about the lime dip... the Benzoyl Peroxide is good .. but be careful it itself doesn't irritate because it's strong)
(To be truthful I wash my hair with these things first, to see if there are any adverse effects)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ritfYXncL._SX425_.jpg
This is what I bought. Is this the right shampoo?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002CZLOAQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Yep, when she said it was stainless, I pretty much thought it is almost certainly not the problem. I'll still do what she suggested, but also add the shampoo. Thank you both for all of the information and specific products. I was trying to avoid the dip and the peroxide shampoo by seeing if the antihistamine could handle it. It definitely helped relieve the large areas of red inflammation and now I can see individual spots. Luckily, he has not had any infection, and I'm with him most of my waking hours petting him or his face a few inches from mine while he is staring at me to make me get up and play, lol.
Even though I've tried a lot of foods with him, I'm trying to take the skin issue slowly and do as little damage as possible with these products. I'll be reporting back here as soon as I get it and I'll do the nightly baths. He'll love that, but I must confess that I can't stand bathing a dog. I know, I know...don't judge me too harshly.
@Djammy - Great subject. However, when talking about yeast infections as well as allergies you will always get a hundred different answers and a thousand different opinions on what works and what doesn't.
I'll can honestly say that there's no right answer that falls in line for every Bull Terrier. One of unfortunate things about the breed is that every Bull Terrier has different tolerance level for ailments that can onset fungus infections as well as skin allergies. You can research for years on this subject and never find the perfect diet, supplement, or medicine that will ensure success on every Bull Terrier. What works well for one Bullie may very well have no affect on another.
As an example, I have many Bull Terriers and I know for a fact that white Bull Terriers are much more susceptible to allergies and yeast infections than colored Bull Terriers. Almost every white Bull Terrier I receive as a rescue usually has some type of skin problem. many times they are easily correctable from a change in diet while other times it requires a lot more effort. I've also noted the younger the bullie is the easier it is to get them back in check. An older EBT that's spent a few years on cheap food is harder to get their system to take to a new food and provide productive results.
Speaking in regard to yeast infections alone, that can often be kept in check with a good diet with a Bull Terrier that has a healthy immune system. However, with some Bull Terriers (especially white ones) keeping them 100% free from all signs of yeast problems can often be near impossible. As an example, take a look at your Bull Terriers fingernails. If you can see a brownish color at the root of the nails he or she has common signs of yeast growth. This doesn't affect them in any negative way but it will provide you with a signal that the particular Bull Terrier is more susceptible to having a yeast problem if not kept in check by a good diet and healthy lifestyle.
I'd be lying to you if I told you none of my Bull Terriers had signs of yeast growth in their fingernails. If you looked at Nitro's nails or Calypso's nails you'd see it. Again, there's no negative health concerns by the visible signs of yeast in the nails but it provides me a sign that I need to make sure they are always eating right, ears are kept clean, and all forms of grain are restricted from their diet. Now understand these two Bullies I mentioned are on the same diet that my other Bullies are on and others have no signs of yeast at all. I have no skin allergy problems at all and no yeast "problems or infections" even on the white Bull Terriers which show yeast within the root of their nails.
Within the last few years my concentration to combat skin ailments inherent to the breed are not solely by a nutritional balanced diet but by additionally concentrating my energy by ensuring their immune systems are strong and healthy so that these ailments have little affect on them. You'll find that a weak immune system casts more problems than you could ever imagine especially in this breed and sadly I'd have to admit that the Bull Terrier breed in general does not have the best immune systems to begin with. You will often hear me harp on the importance of providing Bull Terriers with some form of supplement that boosts their immune system. As many know, I use a product called NuVet and with its use in conjuction with a good diet I've eliminated the worries of skin problems. I wish I had been using NuVet years ago on a few of my older Bullies (like Kolohe) so I could have seen how affective the supplement is into old age. Currently I'm impressed with the results I'm getting with NuVet and know it's doing them justice in many ways.
Those of you reading this that own a white Bull Terrier and just now checked out your Bullies fingernails to look for signs of yeast showing within the root of their nails please let me know if anyone finds one free from common signs resulting from yeast. I took a couple photos today of what the nails should look like when their system is 100% free from the affects of yeast. The Bullie photoed below is a brindle and white. Again, I do not have a white Bull Terrier that has "perfect" nails with no sign of yeast.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
No worries about the "hijacking, there's been a lot of good information exchanged so far. That is what's important. And Steve has already brought the discussion back on track
Please don't get too worried about the yeast thing now. Steve has put that right. It's usually not a problem. Also, if you ARE indeed dealing with a problem of yeast overgrowth, you can smell it. Yeast has a very distinct old, tallowy, cheesy smell. Stick your nose into the fur of your dog or the paws and take a sniff. You'll probably know it right away, IF you have any problem (maybe not directly after a good bath though).
The nails on the photo as far as I can see it look ok to me.
I have posted a photo of Djammy's nails in another discussion. There you see the brown discoloration:
http://www.bulliesofnc.com/BTforum/uploads/FileUpload/41/d9375f1c671975c75724ccc78be2b6.jpg
@Steve
Thank you for all of that information. I agree 100% with everything you say.
Actually not too long ago I did not even know that the discoloration of the nails IS a sign of yeast overgrowth. And I bet a lot of dog owners don't know that either. Vets often do not even point it out to owners during routine exams unless they suspect yeast as a contributing factor to another condition in need of treatment.
I would also not say that Djamila is suffering from a real yeast "problem" so far. Only the fact that it shows up on her makes me a little wary. That's especially, because her predecessor Fancy had such severe issues with it (among others). Djamila is brindle. But I can also follow your assumptions about the extra sensitivity of all white Bull Terriers.
My experience so far also seems to exactly confirm your statement about skin conditions in younger Bullies on good nutrition and supplements being easier to control and treat than in older Bullies, who have been on low-quality, grain-rich food over years.
Sadly the nutrition obviously does not have the potential to entirely prevent allergies and skin problems. BUT it seems to play a vital role in successful treatment and controlling of these conditions.
I am often discussing such things with my husband. In some cases he finds that I am overly sensitive, but we both agree with you about the theories of the impaired immune system in many Bull Terriers.
The other day he came up with an interesting thought due to that: During the last decades allergies, asthma and skin problems also seem to be exponentiating in humans. Other dog breeds than the Bull Terrier see more and more skin problems either.
Maybe Bull Terriers are just one of the extra susceptible species to the ever growing challenges of our polluted environment and industrially produced foods. We humans ourselves are dealing with a lot of issues, be it gluten, soy or transfats, only to name a few. During the last decades in human as well as in pet foods, many manufacturers often have sacrificed quality to the competitive pressure of the industry.Their attempts of keeping up with dumping prices by looking for more and more cheap alternative ingredients seem to go so far as every now and then they even peak in food scandals. If there were the same regulations in effect for animal foods, maybe we'd actually even see a lot more of those scandals surface.
These seem to be the problems we just have to deal with as citizens of a modern world.
Back to the yeast: I know that in humans or dogs yeast is naturally present in and on the body. Also usually it either causes no or only minor problems.
But it CAN become a problem as a factor adding to other conditions, especially when the immune system of the individual is weakened.
Until Djamila developed those bumps a few weeks ago, I wasn't too nervous about the whole yeast thing myself. Wasn't even treating it very consequently.
But from the problems of our former Bully Fancy I know what a huge negative impact yeast overgrowth can have on a body that is already out of balance. That agonizing itch it can cause triggers the licking and scratching. And subsequent multiple mini leasions to the skin are open doors for secondary infection with other microorganisms. Once large-scale inflamation sets in things are likely to get out of control. The downward spiral of infection, inflammation, steroids and antibiotics to relive the suffering for the dog is then mereley a step away.
That's actually what I am so afraid of. If it is in any way in my power to avoid Djamila ever getting to that point, I will do everything I can.
This time my measures seem to work well on Djamila with her bumpy problem.
We had discussed that here:
http://www.bulliesofnc.com/BTforum/discussion/1818/bull-terrier-immunity-problems-skin-coat
Although I was not successful in finding out, what was causing them, she has at least improved a lot in the meantime. Also after I resumed treatment of the yeasty parts (paws/nails and tip of ears) more consequently with ACV and Miconazole I am seeing amazing improvements on that either.
ACV is a real miracle stuff. Even thinking about taking it myself!
I am also thinking about the NuVet supplement. Currently besides probiotics and salmon oil, she gets a daily dose of NuPro as a supplement, which seems to be ok. Originally I had decided for it, because it contains a lot less ingredients than the NuVet and more of the ones, I know a little bit about.
But, maybe it's a good time just to give the NuVet a try next time we need to buy a new box. My husband has also already suggested that. Just to use the chance to see, if it makes any difference.
As I am already freely exploiting my options regardig supplements, ointments, soaks, shampoos, grooming and hygiene etc., I started to take another look into the nutrition again to find out, if I can figure out any options for improvements there, regarding the yeast growth.
That's when I stumbled over the realization that a lot of kibble foods (even the "good", grain-free varieties) seem to be plant based. That made me think about my options of temporarily excluding potential sources of sugars for yeast growth, such as potatoes, sweet potatoes, rice and other sources rich in starch. Just to know in case it would become necessary some day in the future.
I was curious to know, if I am drawing the correct conclusions about kibble food and have already found a first real good input from exiled regarding that.
If anyone has some special experience with the impact of nutrients rich in sugars (like fruits, honey and certain treats) or rich in starch (potatoes, sweet potatoes, rice etc.) on yeast overgrowth, I'd still love to hear about or discuss it.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
Would pumpkin have a definite negative effect for a BT that is battling a yeast problem? It's been a wonderful addition to his diet that has helped one problem, but I'm wondering if it will maybe start to build up over time and create a new problem.
Pumpkin has a lot of positive effects on the digestive system of dogs and so far I have not heard of it as a definite trigger of yeast problems. So, as long as there is no yeast problem present, I would not exclude such a valuable addition just to avoid yeast.
In a quick research I actually read that pumpkin seeds and oil are recommended in candida fighting diets in humans. So I would guess that it rather seems to have a yeast reducing effect or at least does not have any promoting effects on yeast growth.
In this case the pumpkin would only be something I'd look into a little closer, IF any problems occur.
What is ACV, by the way? It sounds like its been really helpful for your BT.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
About the apple cider vinegar, I have the bottle sitting on the kitchen counter. I've got the exact kind you're talking about, made by Bragg. There's a guy that I've spent a lot of time talking with about food. He has a grooming business and also a boutique that is where I first heard about PureVita (and bought some from him). He strongly suggested the ACV, saying I wouldn't see it recommended by a vet, but he found it extremely beneficial for the coat and immune system. I admittedly have been slow actually trying it because I'm going slowly with the food changes. He said to add a tablespoon to his food. That's where I also bought some green tripe. He has one dog on a raw diet and one on PureVita. Since he has a grooming business, he sees a lot of dogs of various breeds and hair color, so he shared with me what was helpful for some of his clients.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
Well first off, you will never be able to cut out all carbohydrates or sugars from your dog's diet unless you are doing a raw diet and you know exactly what you're feeding your dog. Even then, most people I see feeding Raw/BARF still includes fruits, veggies and sometimes pasta and potatoes. Even pumpkin is going to have a bit of natural sugars or glucose in it...pumpkin is still a carbohydrate.
Quinn has been through the yeast infection. You say that Djamila only had a light problem... Quinn's paws were the worst. She had the brown goop in between her toes. She had browning of the toenails, some of them more than half the nail. At its worst, she had hair loss on her feet, and her feet always looked dirty. They had that smell about them, the "Frito feet" diagnosis. Further than that, she had thinning hair on other parts of her body, most significantly on her belly. Back near her lady parts she would have redness and the same brown goo...yeast thrives in damp conditions (skin folds, in between toes). At the time, Quinn was on Acana's "Singles" line, a limited ingredient diet with one protein and it appears to be grain free. However, the Acana Singles line is 50 meat/50 fruit and veg.
At a vet check up unrelated to her yeast infection (because I didn't know) the vet pointed out the problem and we started her treatment. We were given a steroid (I don't remember which) and we were given some anti-bac/anti-fungal wipes. Upon doing some research about yeast infections, I found that steroids were not the solution, and after a few days of seeing Quinn on this medication, I stopped it (gradually). I did continue with the wipes twice a day, and then gradually moved to once a day. Probably did the wipes for close to a month. When she finished the wipes I immediately started her on coconut oil as a natural supplement. Also during this time I moved Quinn to Acana's Regional line, listed as grain-free. This recipe is listed as 60-65% meats and 35-40% fruit and veg. What's interesting though is that while her yeast was worse on the Singles, the Regionals line is the one with the potato, both sweet and regular. After all these changes, JUST wipes, coconut oil and a food switch, Quinn has improved immensely and her skin and hair is back to 100%. (with the exception of me skipping her coconut oil for the past two weeks and her feet have taken a dip back in the other direction)
I do wonder...are you doing too much?? I read so many supplements, medications, shampoos, remedies I couldn't even follow what you were doing. It's my personal decision to not overload my dog with too much "stuff," and when I do try something new and it doesn't work or she reacts negatively to it, I stop. No sense in keeping on something with no results to show for it. One bit of advice I would throw in if you truly believe this is a yeast infection is to stop bathing so much. Yeast thrives in moist environments and even though you're bathing with anti-fungal shampoo, your dog's skin and hair will still be damp, giving the yeast a chance. Medicated shampoos for allergies or lesions is a different story, but I'm still not a fan of overworking their coat. Short haired dogs don't need to be bathed too frequently anyway, it's not good for their coats.
What I believe is going on with both dogs is not yeast, but an allergy. I would pretty comfortably say that Rodney's problem is not yeast just due to the lack of the brown that is usually seen on toes and skin. Allergies make yeast infections worse, not the other way around. Yeast infections are not difficult to treat, but just take some time. However, it's unlikely your dog will ever be 100% yeast free. Allergies on the other hand will be a lifelong battle. Dogs can have allergies to many things, as you've learned with the pesticides or lawn treatments where you live. Dogs can also have allergies to proteins. We had a handful of dogs come into our resort that were on fish only diets due to allergies to chicken or some other protein. As far as I know, the only reason yeast infections will produce sores is due to licking, so if your dog has bumps or other things popping up, you've likely got another issue on your hands. Quinn has had flea allergies before and has gotten some nasty bites, but her yeast infections never brought on bumps. All dogs are different, but I really believe less is more for a true yeast infection.
And just a heads up - Orijen Six Fish, which is an excellent food, includes yam, butternut squash, apples, pears, cranberries, blueberries, and sweet fennel.
The Orijen Six Fish is the food that the boutique at his doggy spa recommended most of all. He didn't like the Acana Pacifica as much as the other Acana Regionals Wild Prairie and Ranchlands, so after much discussion, we bought the Orijen Regional Red. He is devouring it. We'll have to wait and see if the Orijen agrees with him as much as he agrees with it. I can't imagine finding a better kibble.
I'm intrigued about ACV and the coconut oil. I didn't realize you're using it as a dip. The guy that sells the PureVita is giving it to his dogs internally. I've got the Bragg ACV (with the sediment) and a rather HUGE tub of organic coconut oil that my husband had to have when they opened Costco last year, lol.
While I never meant to sidetrack, I'm glad it does keep being brought back to the original topic. Honestly, before being on this forum, I had no idea the brown on the nails signaled yeast overgrowth. I think Rodney's nails look pretty good at the moment, so thought it might be helpful to add what he is eating--taking into account each BT is different and will respond differently. What works for one might or might not work for another one, as we all know. The things I think are helping HIM are antihistamines, the NuVet Plus supplement tablets, grizzly oil, a tablespoon of organic canned pumpkin, and very high quality GF kibble (was on Acana, now changing to Orijen) and a small amount of the Merrick 96 percent canned since he was accustomed to wet and dry. He's been getting groomed weekly, and also part of his weekly regimen is cleaning his ears with the solution we got from the vet, and brushing his teeth with the kit we bought from the vet. I've just started rubbing some bag balm onto his "elbows" since those are looking dry, and also a dab on his nose. We brush him daily and spray some sugar cane & grapefruit pet "perfume".
The bumps are tenacious. Those are getting better, and so far he hasn't been licking and there aren't any looking infected. I'm glad the vet didn't go the steroid and antibiotics route. The steroids might have helped, but I want to give the antihistamines a little longer in case it's a seasonal allergy that will go away soon. His coat is so thin, a couple of people have said he looks more like a pig now than ever, lol.
It is wonderful looking at how far you've come with Djamila's nails. This is a great topic and no doubt will help someone that is dealing with yeast overgrowth. At least it's a thread with alternatives and options that have either worked or not worked for various people.
I am hesitant to accept everything my vet says as far as treatments because every medication/wipe/treatment I accept is just another buck for them. I forget what I had Quinn in for, but they ended up suggesting two types of medication, fluid injections, and further shots of medication for something so simple! I ended up choosing to take one medication via a pharmacy (cheaper, but same) and getting her the fluid injections (she needed those). If something your vet suggests doesn't work, stop the treatment (if it isn't harmful to do so). I listen to my vet for a lot of things, but steroids for yeast infections and them telling me to have my dog lose weight are not one of them...
I do understand now why you bathe her so much. We are landlocked, Quinn hates water, and I usually just wash her feet when needed and give her a full bath when stinky. So as you can see we're nearly the exact opposite. However, when I took her to the beach last month, she was rinsed every day she went down there to rid her of the sand and salt from the ocean. It seems you have a lot more to contend with environmentally than we do...but I still worry about overworking the coat.
Ha I don't picture you as a mad scientist with beakers of unpronounceable chemicals being dumped over Djamila. I was just reading through all these posts and there seemed to be so many medications and other treatments, and it baffled me because my treatment or Quinn was so simple, and I consider her previous case of yeast more severe. But like you've confirmed, you're dealing with more than yeast. And I think if you can fix or tame the other stuff, you won't have to worry about yeast as much.
With the food - again, you'll see I'm nearly the opposite. Quinn is fed Acana kibble, daily coconut oil, and currently some special freeze-dried lamb chunks for treats.
Overall I agree with you about the subject at hand. I don't think that carbohydrates or plants or sugars are the simple answer contributing to dog yeast. I agree it is quality and quantity. As mentioned before, Quinn does eat food containing both potatoes and various fruits and veggies, and though I have battled yeast I still saw an improvement after I put her on this diet. But I would say the Acana containing sweet potato is much better for a yeasty dog than Purina containing sweet potato.
@exiled - I hope you can find a remedy for Rodney's allergies to get them manageable. I would definitely stick to antihistamines over steroids. Steroids are a temporary fix and over time do more harm than good. I have been fortunate enough to not have a dog with bad allergies, so I have no suggestions except for yeast!
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
We're continuing with the pumpkin because that's been really beneficial for other problems. The bumps are not improving, even with the antihistamines and grain-free diet. I'm hoping the shampoo will help him turn the corner because a couple of spots are erupting. We stopped using the harness in case that's causing problems from rubbing or just irritating his skin for some reason.
It looks like a furuncle might be forming between two of his front toes. I've been looking a lot online and ordered some Hibiclens, Vetericyn Hydrogel, and some Douxo pads. I'll do the epsom salt soaks first, then clean with the Hibiclens and follow up with a wipe with the Douxo pads or Vetericyn. I can't get pictures yet since he doesn't want me playing with his foot, but will see if I can get some help taking some this weekend.
You have also mentioned that you are using sugar cane & grapefruit pet "perfume". I can literally smell it by the name
However, especially those "fancy" things with no other beneficial use than a good smell, but the possible potential of skin irritation, I would leave in the closet at least for the time you're dealing with those bumps.
He's been in our home for five months. He wasn't a shelter dog, but was a rescue from the breeder. They had him for a couple of weeks while they waited for my husband to be able to make the long drive. They took fantastic care of him and he was in great shape when we got him. There was a slightly balding spot on his head and base of his tail that seem common with this breed. Those filled in quickly and haven't really returned.
He's been taking supplements the entire time he's been with us--NuVet Plus (from the Bullies of NC link) and grizzly oil. Both seem to agree with him and I am continuing. We have changed his food several times, but it's been gradual and I haven't noticed any negatives as far as his skin to the changes, only poop firmness. We added organic pumpkin that has cleared up that problem, but the rash was before we tried it and it hasn't had any affect whatsoever on his skin that I can discern.
The rash is on his chest and tips of his back thighs that come in contact with grass when he belly crawls--which he won't stop doing. There's raised bumps that seem to follow where metal connectors are on his harness. The manufacturer says the metal is stainless steel, so that seems unlikely to cause allergic reactions, but there's something clearly connected to the harness that's irritating his skin because that's where the bumps are.
He hasn't been in his harness or collar except for the time he's been outside of the home. Both were put on and taken off when we crossed the threshold. We have put the harness away and are only using a leash that doesn't touch him. We will have to wait to see if that helps. The collar, I must use for his safety when he's outside, but it's never on him inside and has a plastic clasp.
His skin and coat were healthy and beautiful...until the heat got here. He is in a/c, and the floor are the original wood (our house is over 100-years-old) or travertine in the bath and kitchen. There's rugs here and there that are cleaned regularly, but no carpet whatsoever.
His vet is the same vet that treated my other BT, and I trust him completely. He feels like antihistamines are what's needed, and I agree with him. I appreciate that he's not prescribing steroids or antibiotics as the first line of defense. Luckily, the eruptions that have occurred here and there are not getting infected. We are keeping him clean and dry. Bedding is totally fresh every single day, and everything is washed with hot water using the exact same laundry cleaners since he's been here. Again, I keep going back to the rash that seems to show up where he touches the grass or where the harness touches his skin.
I should have been clearer about all of those products I wrote about, because it does sound like the poor little pup is about to be assaulted with all sorts of chemicals and supplements. The epsom salt, Douxo pads, Hibiclens, and Vetericyn are only for that one pea-sized spot on his toe. I'm not rinsing him or shampooing him with anything except the Etiderm that Phil recommended that we just got yesterday. Realistically, I know I won't be able to wash him daily, but twice a week for a few weeks is possible. Then, he'll probably be back to his weekly shampoo routine. Again, except for the Etiderm, the other stuff is only for the toe and I will probably try one of those at a time and only if it is, in fact, a furuncle. The bag balm is only a dot to soften his front elbows and tip of his nose. We haven't seen any negatives from the bag balm that is limited to those spots.
As far as the ACV, yesterday was the first day. The guy that recommended it for him has had great success with his dogs and dogs that he grooms that have had rashes. The ACV internally and the Etiderm externally are the two things that I'm adding at this time. The Orijen kibble and Merrick 96 percent meat have been agreeing with him and had no affect on the rash--positive or negative. It has had a positive affect on his GI tract, so we'll stick with that.
I'm beginning to think that it might not really be possible to clear up his skin totally until the temperatures cool down again. He's extremely happy and not showing any discomfort except for a scratch every now and then. He doesn't have any fleas, and I don't hear him scratching at all during the day or night. You're right, too, that the yeast doesn't seem to be his problem and it's going to be a lot of SLOW trial and error trying to see if we can figure out what is really triggering the rash. I'm definitely not trying to detract from the yeast conversation, only add his rash background if it might potentially help someone in the future as they try to weigh whether they're battling yeast or not. Your thread has been extremely helpful for me, and I know it will help lots of people, too.
Also, when I was originally looking up home remedies and natural supplements for yeast infections, I did see many mentions of Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV). But I figured if I had to choose between smelling vinegar or smelling coconuts, I'm going with the coconuts.
@exiled I was wondering if anyone was ever going to mention bugs... I know you say that Rodney doesn't have fleas but are you SURE? And I'm not meaning "yes he has fleas!!!" but the one time Quinn had problems with bumps it turned out to be fleas. I only ever saw one flea on her... But we took her in, vet suggested it could be a flea allergy. Quinn's symptoms were small bumps that would raise up like a zit, become very red and then I guess bust and eventually scab over. When they would scab and the scab would come off, it would take all the hair with it. These bumps were all over her body, not like freckles, but they weren't concentrated in one area is what I mean. Quinn was given a medication called CapStar which kills all live fleas on the dog's body within an hour or less. She was still on her flea treatment as well, so that took care of any "budding" fleas. She was also given an antibiotic for the scabs. And that was that! I know the South can have some pretty freaky bugs. Quinn recently had a bite on her neck and on her ear...may have been a mosquito but they were so red and ugly I really focused on keeping them cleaned and treated with antiseptic cream. I have always treated Quinn's skin issues individually...one vet gave me a medicated wash and it made her worse. I still hold the opinion that the bathing of the short haired dogs needs to slow down. Even when Rodney is better, I wouldn't bathe him once a week. Once a month more like.
Anyway, that's the only experience we've had with bumps. I just mention it because the solution we were given happened to work! I really do hope you can find a solution for Rodney's bumps soon though. 8-}
The rash is on his chest and parts of his thighs, and the bumps are concentrated on his front shoulders and sporadically located on his body and head. It is like 2 separate things, like maybe an allergy to grass and some other irritant that seems to be connected to his harness.
Even if he's bump-free and rash-free when winter rolls around, I know I still need to figure out what it is since it is likely to resurface every summer if it's an environmental trigger.
As far as foregoing the weekly bathing, I can't deal with the doggy smell with the heat. I exercise him a lot and he smells like it, too. I initially thought it would be monthly, but within 2 or 3 days, I'm looking forward to him getting groomed. During the cooler weather, it wasn't really necessary for weekly baths, so that could change in a few months.
I live in the middle of the city, but one of my brothers lives in a more woodsy environment and has had both of their dogs test positive for heart worms even though they've given their dogs heart worm preventive every month. Their lab got it twice, and their Jack Russell terrier got it once. It has scared me that maybe these monthly preventives aren't as effective. When I spoke to my vet, he said living in the city, our dog's exposure would be limited enough that everything will be fine. He recommended Trifexis, so I went along with it and give it every month religiously on the same date of every month...the Advantix II, too, since we sometimes take Rodney to my family's farm.
I don't know much about Revolution, but did buy it for a stray cat that a neighbor abandoned (I got it neutered and vaccinated, too, since neighborhood kids were playing with it). I don't think that's the brand my brother used.
I'm laughing about you saying the ACV is like a condiment. lol! When I opened it up, Rodney came up licking his lips while I was mixing his food. My husband noticed it, too, and said he could see how interested he was in it.
We bathed him last night at the dog park with the Etiderm. It didn't lather up much, but he looks very clean and smells okay. They have a nice dog wash station, so we used it. When it gets colder, we will have to bathe him inside...not looking forward to that. Maybe we'll rent hotel rooms and do it there...just kidding...maybe.
The Trifexis is a monthly pill. It takes care of heart worms, parasites, and fleas and mosquitoes. We add Advantix II (topical drops) to add tick prevention since he sometimes goes into the woods when we're out of town. Everything I've heard about Trifexis has been good, so I was glad when my vet recommended it. He added Advantix II and felt like that would be nearly complete coverage for Rodney. Not pushing you to get it, just don't ever want a dog to get heart worms after finding out my brother's two dogs got it even though they were given the medication every month. Plus, since he's inside, I want full protection for parasites and fleas. Revolution might cover those things, too, I'm just not familiar with it for dogs.
Have you ever tried mosquito dunks? I was a little dismayed when I saw my husband filling up a bowl of water, but it did seem to cut down on the population. It seems counter-intuitive, but it worked. I don't like having Deet on me, so I get bites every other day or so. Mosquitoes seem to find me extremely tasty and pass over everyone else to get to me.