Sudden Onset Aggression...
BULL TERRIER PEOPLE!!! So today at work I had a very surreal experience. Well I work at Petco and in the grooming department but I was bored so I went out on the floor and started putting new items away, a very nice couple asked me about an item and I began to talk about it with them, I asked them what kind of dogs they had and one was a Shar Pei and one was in fact a Bull Terrier! So we started having a good conversation about bullies and they expressed to me a concern they've been having with there 3 year old neutered male bull terrier. They told me every night when he's sleeping he wakes up, his eyes roll in the back of his head and he full out attacks anyone he's near, and of course I knew right away what they were dealing with. It was by a coincidence that I happened to be out there and it was very awesome that I was able to shine some light on there problem, I told them what they were dealing with was SOA and I told them to join some forums (yahoo bull terrier neurological) to get better insight on what health tests to have there vet conduct and what meds they can get him on, they were so VERY appreciated and it felt awesome to be able to help them and talk with them. I hope they can help there bully out because they love him and are willing to do whatever it takes.
Comments
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
Sounds like he's in the perfect hands. I'm willing to bet in due time he'll grow out of his evil ways and learn other ways to express himself during the times he would normal display SOA.
By nature, the EBT is a lovable breed that wants nothing more than to show affection towards people and try their best to please their owners. It's so rare that I hear about any Bull Terrier displaying a temperament that's not not full of love every second of the day.
With all the attention your providing your Bull Terrier his nature instincts will kick in and I'm sure the SOA will minimize and go away like a bad habit.
I'd sure like to see a photo of him...
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
I dont think true SOA can go away considering its said to be a mental disorder or seizure related, as if the dog was going into a seizure or a minor one, causing it to be in a fit of rage. Its really hard to diagnose it, and nothing behavioral modification will help or change the behavior, it has nothing to do with behavior. It's possible maybe he does not have SOA, to me it sounds like it, but im unsure if the behavior would change with a soft muzzle on if it was true SOA. Does Spike still go into the fits when he is wearing the muzzle? I think its common these dogs can be grumpy and sensitive while sleeping, often times my dogs will snap and growl at each other while sleeping if they become disturbed. The other day my boyfriend told me Scarlett woke up from a dead sleep and approached him barking and growling, twice. Wish I would have seen it, sounds a ton like rage syndrome, he said he grabed her and put her outside and she was fine, couldnt have been SOA because even being touched or handled will not snap them out of the rage. Here is a video of another bull terrier with a case of SOA.
http://www.btneuro.org/btneuro-old/soa.htm
That Bullie in the video acts as if he's seeing ghosts. Maybe he's saying "I see dead people."
On a serious note, I have yet to see this in an EBT. This video was my first and I've been around Bull Terriers for many, many years. A few years back I knew of another breeder who rescued a Bullie with SOA but never got to see the actual aggression that he explained the dog displayed when he was sleeping.
I darn sure wouldn't want to wake that dog up when he was sleeping.
Here's a good article on SOA as it relates to Bull Terriers:
http://www.btneuro.org/?page_id=24
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
We have some excellently qualified vets and facilities here in FL... I swear they all have majors in Business Admin, Accounting, PR, BS, and a bit of animal science thrown in.... No, I am sure there must be one or three that still have the calling, I just haven't bumped into them yet.
My Goodness! I have been trying to read every catagory and every post in each sub forum to just try and catch up!~ FINALLY got a response from the woman(over emotional with an 11 yr old boy the sane way!). She wrote out a fairly lengthy email to me which I was very pleased to recieve.
I can now understand why Brooklyn is such a mess as this persoin does not understand the most basic needs or pscychology of a dog, any dog! "If she won't go outside to potty, then just put her back in her crate: What? Anyway, this is an SOA thread.
So here's another thing she said way down the page.
" She will wake up mad and attack us or the other dog! I think its cute. Ha Ha. " Again WHAT????
So keeping Zerlettes post in mind I replied and told her that I would give this dog an honest trial, probably at leastg 60 days. Time for her to start to feel at home and hopefully start getting over the extreme stress she is under. But, if I see that SOA. is indeed present in this dog I will give her back! This is really worrying and I have not ever had to give back a dog even that I just fostered. Yes, I've had to put two of them down over the years, they were, in a word, insane.
I will of course do my usual and start Brooklyn out in an EX Pen,. So that should help me get a good idea if the behavior I am told of is stress or if I'm dealing with SOA. This woman has such bizzare reactions to things that her dogs do, there is just no telling what this lil dog has been through there.
I did not see any idea on the previous posts on whether there may be a particular age this sydrome may present itself? I'll read that Link that is provided though and there may be more info there.
Now I am worried about meeting her on Sunday. The owner won;t leave her here at that time (???) but may bring her back in a week. Who knows! She has not replied yet to my questions about this possible SOA and whether she thinks that what she is seeing is indeed that.
Thank you all for all of these most valuable threads!!! Sonja & Pumba
Any updates on these previous situations please? As this old dinosaur-dial-up here cannot play videos I am missing out I know!
Hope anyone with an update will chime in! Thanks so much! Sonja & Pumba
I own a 8 month old MBT, Otto, who's been showing signs of SOA. By reading the descriptions of the condition on BTNeuro, it feels like I am reading a description of him. Except that although most of his sudden rage attacks happen when he's asleep, he sometimes has them while awake.
For example, it is not so rare to have him playing happily in the living room when he walks past my wife, who's using her laptop not really paying attention, and then he suddenly lunges at her foot.
Also, sometimes we can't usually pet him for very long. For example, when Otto is being a nice boy or obeyed a command and we go "good boy!!!" on him, he is really happy for the first few seconds, but then he will suddenly stop wagging his tail and lunge at the hand that's petting him.
He is properly socialized with both dogs and humans, has been going regularly to puppy kindergarten, received obedience training and is great at obeying commands and has even worked as a "model-dog" to children and elders, and is really popular with humans and dogs alike, wherever we take him.
Maybe out of ignorance about SOA, he was neutered last week because we thought that might have something to do with his aggression, and the procedure was also recommended by his vet and by his instructor (whom he loves, btw).
Reading almcneil's comments I got really hopeful, thinking maybe Otto's case is not SOA, but I am trying to gather as much info about it as I can, because I can't find much around here where I currently live (Tokyo).
(Attached are a few pictures of Otto being his adorable self)
I have met dogs who'll let you pet them but will lunge at you when you stop doing it. That's not Otto's case. When he does it, he does it suddenly, while we are at it.
The big problem though, is when he's asleep, when he'll wake up and bite hard.
The only time he attacked someone after suddenly waking up was last week.
At night, my wife and I were watching TV and Otto was sleeping on the floor, by the couch. My wife then moved a little, so her feet got a little bit over the couch's edge, like 10 inches above Otto, who in a split-second woke up and lunged at her feet. When she moved one of them, he bit the other, drawing blood from a couple of her toes.
Otto used to be around my wife and I while we watch TV at night, sleeping somewhere on the living room, and we would put him to bed when we went to bed ourselves. However, I think SOA started developing inside him or something.
He would be sleeping somewhere around us and the TV sound does not bother him at all, no matter how high the volume is. But the moment my wife and I started talking (not talking to him or even saying his name), he would start growling, and if we dont stop talking when he's like that, he growls more and more up to the point when he'll lunge at whatever is closer to him: the curtain, a piece of furniture, his crate's lock...
Because of that, we started putting him to sleep in a different room as soon as he looks sleepy or particularly grumpy. Maybe thanks to those big ears of his, though, doing that helped but didn't solve the problem, because when he hears us talking while sleeping or trying to, he'll lunge viciously on his crate's lock. and I mean viciously. He bites it as he's in rage mode, drooling and barking and growling all at the same time.
On times like that I'll go to where he's at and make some loud noise to get his attention, and he'll keep doing it for a while, until I physically get him to stop. Then he'll remain agitated for a while and slowly calm down. Until he lays back down, looking relaxed as if nothing had happened.
Thankfully, it is usually easy to know when he is going to enter rage mode. His ears kind of point a little backwards (not down, though), and his eyes aims somewhere at the top/back of his head as if in a trance.
I don't know if I am trying to be too optimistic, but there are a few reasons why i think (and I hope) this might not be SOA:
1- On those night situations, he doesn't seem to be triggered by any sound other than our voices, specially my wife's;
2- When he enters that trance state while awaken and I try to confront him, he'll keep growling, with those weird eyes without making eye contact. As I approach him, he'll still avoid eye contact and growl louder and louder until he lunges at something that's near, but not at me. He'll only try to bite me when there's nothing else to bite and I get too close. So I guess he can still kind of control his actions. (When he's asleep he'll bite whatever is closer though, be it human or object).
3- I've read somewhere that dogs with SOA get angry with no reason. And in Otto's case, as stupid as they were, there were reasons (my wife's foot surprising him, our voices).
So those 3 points make me think it just might be some weird teenager dominance issues directed at us and more specifically at my wife. But when he's normal, like 80% of the time, he's the sweetest dog, to both of us.
Another thing I believe I must mention is that although he's had those aggressive fits when alone with either my wife or myself, they are much more frequent when we are all together.
I am so sorry for such a long post and for it being all over the place, but I kept typing as I remembered.
Also, I'm sorry for my grammar. English is not my first language.
Thanks for reading!
Thanks for taking the time for such a thorough case study. I really hope that someone has some experience in what you describe because my initial thoughts as to what may be going on were debunked by your further information. It's got me baffled. At the risk of asking too much again... exactly what is he eating, and what exactly is his daily routine/ exercise etc. Maybe those will hit a lightbulb for someone.
(English should be your first language because you are much better at it than 80% of those that call English their first language these days)
AlMcNeil.... Wow that is so sad!!! Tell us a bit more about her..... Does she get a lot of ( panting type) exercise? Is she alone a lot? Are there other dogs?, other family members whom she could be jealous of?
@philsergeant: He eats premium fish and potato dry food, twice a day. In the morning, around 8am, and at night, around 8:30pm.
His routine doens't change much. We take him out of his cage in the morning when we wake up, around 7:30am, feed him around 8am, after we are done eating. Around 10:30 the wife takes him on a 90~120minute walk. In the afternoon they go out again for about one hour and we feed him around 8:30pm. We put him to sleep around 22:30. All other times he spends around the living room.
On Saturdays and Sundays we usually take him to a place close to home where he can run free, and stay there for about 90 minutes.
I mean... that USED to be his routine.
My wife and I have talked to Otto's trainer, a young dog behaviorist who's been training Otto since he got here. She's by no means a BT specialist, but she loves Otto and Otto clearly loves her back.
We have shown her the articles about SOA and described Otto's behavior to her and, although his behavior is not "normal", she believes his fits of rage to be a behavioral issue, rather than a psychiatric condition.
The way he focus his anger on his cage, the way he avoids biting me if there's something around to bite first and some other traits of him led her to believe that he's facing some serious territorial/possessive issues. And the way he usually have those fits when both my wife and I are together, and that he seems to target her more frequently, might point to dominance issues, trying to put himself as number two in the household, between my wife and I.
We decided that the most important is to identify the causes for his problem. To try and make sure if it is behavioral or a condition. To do that, we decided to try and "reset" his mindset regarding his "pack". She alerted us that if it was behavioral, we should watch out while trying to solve the problem because before it got better, it would get much worse, because he would try those approaches that have always worked for him (being aggressive and all) harder.
(Quick observation: my default method for correcting his behavior has always been the pin-down method).
We tried to exclude him from family life for one week. The aim was for him to understand that spending time with us was, rather than everyday life, a privilege. He was to spend his whole time at his cage (larger than his crate, with some room outside of it so he can go to the bathroom). On the first day, we were not to have contact with him at all. We didn't even feed him. Starting the second day, we would feed him twice a day and take those times to clean up after him. We did the feeding/cleaning routine with no talking to him and no eye contact.
Everything was going normal: in Otto's case that meant that he'd spend the day time fine and that at night we could hear him have his fits, growling and barking and attacking everything that he could. As hard as it was, we tried our best and did manage to ignore him.
Just as we thought nothing would change, on the 5th things changed for worse, much worse, but I think that was a blessing in disguise.　The bad news was that Otto's aggression escalated greatly. The growling and barking that we were used to at night or when he was sleepy, went on for a full day, with only a few moments of silence (while he was getting some rest to start over again probably). He even bit me once when, during one of his fits, i had the smart idea to refill his water bowl (only front teeth to my forearm - no blood drawn but left a nice black mark). That led me to believe even more that his issue is behavioral. This was, in my opinion, that "getting worse before getting better".
The 6th day was just as bad.
On the 7th, his trainer visited us, did a little re-configuring of Otto's room and decided to extend the treatment for at least another week. She said that that kind of "resetting" usually takes one full month, and that she knows it is hard on both the dogs and the families, but she really did advocate for it. If anything, it was better than the alternative. We questioned specially his lack of exercise during the treatment, if that couldn't make him worse from having too much energy pent up. She said of course that dogs need exercises to be balanced, but in otto's case, we need to take care of the worse of two evils first.
After she left, Otto had another bad day, and i was starting to lose faith. But on the 8th day he did it much less, and kept on doing it less and less. He went on a full 3 days with no growling or barking at all! Not even at night. Today he let out a quick bark, but that was about it. Also, his behavior when my wife and I go in for the feeding/cleaning routine had really improved. In the beginning he was REALLY agitated, almost destructive, and would start his attacks against his surroundings the minute we left. Now, he has this calm, "I-miss-you-guys-and-I-learnt-my-lesson-so-lets-just-get-this-over-with look in his eyes that makes it hard to keep going, but I know this is for the best.
Next Wednesday his trainer is coming back to check on Otto. I mean, we are sending reports everyday, with the detailed times of his fits and duration of them. Let's see if all his recent improvement leads her to cut his treatment short, but I don't know if that would throw him back to his evil ways. I'll report back after she visits again.
By the way, even after this grounding period is over, she has prepared quite a few weekly schedules for our home, so Otto's freedom is gradually back. It will start with some grounded periods during the day until he is 100% ready to be around the whole time.
I confess I though the treatment a bit harsh, but the improvement it has been showing has given me the strength to keep going on and not just call it all off and go hug and spoil little Otto. It has given me hope that his problems are behavioral and, albeit not simple to solve, are really possible to solve.
@exiled , I would bet that are some good vet universities around, but I will finish the current "treatment" before. I am a Brazilian living in Tokyo, Japan, and even though I speak Japanese, I'd have a hard time with all the medical and technical terms. To be sure, I have already paid an interpreter to translate some texts about SOA into Japanese, and I have them ready for the next step, should it be necessary (which I hope and, maybe a bit too optimistically think, it won't).
I am trying my best to not be over optimistic, because I know it may still be too soon, but my wife and I are really happy with the improvements so far.
Otto did spend four weeks on the program I described on the post above. Basically, he spent his whole time in our guest room, where we set up a space with his cage (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/yuni-mart/327818/), fenced by this kind of dog fence (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/enetroom/246136/), so he had room to sleep and to go to the bathroom. All in all, his area was the size of 2 to 3 of those cages. We only had contact with him twice a day, morning and night, when my wife and I went in to feed him and clean everything.
As we suspected his problem to be related to possessiveness, his only possession during this time was his water bowl. Even his food bowl was removed and we would feed him by hand, dropping little portions of his food, little by little, on a corner of his cage, as he ate.
As I said before, he was having his fits of rage less and less, and we were feeling good about this. However, about 3 or 4 days before the end of the fourth week it seemed like he snapped. He spent almost the whole day growling and barking and attacking, as usual, the cage's lock. And by all day, I mean he would go into attack mode for like 40 minutes, be silent for half an hour, and then start all over.
It would be stressful enough of a situation to have a dog growling and barking like that, on the next room, with a reason. The way things were, though, was even worse. It is terrible to have your dog like that and not being able to do anything. It is such a frustrating sensation. But we fought against the will to just go inside the room to do something, because this was what the treatment was all about. Also, out of experience, we knew that if we did that, he would just redirect his aggression towards us.
On the next morning, during feeding/cleaning routine, we noticed some blood, which of course got us worried, and we also noticed that the lock on his cage was completely gone. I don't know if you can see from the picture, but it was made of really hard plastic, and it was really well attached to the cage. But I guess this is nothing to the power and stubbornness of a bully, even a miniature adolescent one.
We thought that now, with his biggest enemy gone, things would get better, but he spent the following couple of nights just as aggressively, but now targeting the fences and the fences' bases.
Now it starts getting interesting. Since the fences were already too short for him, I had ordered this (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/kurosu/richell0040/), which can be used both as a fence or as a cage, and it got delivered on the day his trainer was to come visit us. By that time I was sure Otto had no salvation, because of the last couple of nights I was sure it would require some sort of medical treatment to get him right.
We changed his room's set up. We used that new fence to fence him in and, inside the fence, we left only the tray of his previous cage. Around the tray we'd leave sheets so he could go to the bathroom if and when needed, because we also resumed his walks.
Now he would still be on his own all day, except for during feeding time and during his two one hour walks a day. Also feeding time would be done in the kitchen. Because he showed some possessive behavior to his new setup (tried to lunge at the trainer's assistant that came to help us out with the new setup), we would use rigid discipline: "Sit-stay" before we open his cage, "come" so he can leave his setup, "sit-stay" so we can put his leash on and get out of the room before him, "lie down - stay", for a minute at first, so he can eat, then everything in reverse. This is the same for when we take him out, but during walks we also train sit-stay at random points.
The reason he has his leash on during meals is because on his first meal in the kitchen after the one month inside, he viciously attacked the bowl after he was done eating.
He's had this new routine for a little over one week and he's been perfect. Not one single growling, not one single bark, not one single crazy-eye. When we get in his room he's always looking as if he's in peace, almost smiling. He performs all commands perfectly, but you can tell by his age and his demeanor, that he's dying to play.
I know it's only been one week, but considering the nights we couldn't sleep, listening to that growling beast next room, it already feels like an eternity.
Could it be that the simple presence of that old cage triggered him like that? I don't think so, because he's also had issues with crates (with or without their doors) and other things.
Also, the other day (but before we got his new setup) he stepped on some poo, and when we tried to clean it, he was fine for a while but then tried to bite my wife's hand, as usual. The trainer said that's normal. According to her, that first month was to reset his family relations. His aggressiveness is to be dealt with from now on, but that should be easier than before, now that he doesnt see himself as the boss.
It is wonderful that he spent one week without being triggered, and it would be great to just go on like this, but now we are working on finding out what was it that triggered him. Yesterday, his trainer picked Otto up at our house and took him and everything he's had (crates old and new, toys, treats, fences, colars, beds, towels, leashes, food, bowls, EVERYTHING) with them. Otto will spend a couple of weeks with them at their training facility, and the weekends on the company's president's (and kind of master trainer) house, so they can get a closer look.
We have written down everything that has triggered him before. I kind of wish this had been done a couple of weeks ago, when I almost gave up on Otto. But even now, that he appears to be fine, I think is a good time.
I don't think that Otto will ever be a lapdog, nor do we want him to be one. I just can't imagine doing like I've seen on so many pictures on this forum, simply watching TV lying down with him. But knowing that he's at peace is good enough for me and I can't wait for the day when my wife and I can enjoy some family time with him at home, even if from a safe distance.
B-)
@Boyda , I get what you mean when you say this method does not seem to be helpful at all. My wife and I had problems with it in the start as well.
I had read before in an book about training dogs something close to what Otto's trainer suggested, but on the book it said something about doing it for 3 to 5 days... 1 week tops. However, besides the treatment duration, everything else was about the same: the importance of doing it to the end, the part where it said the dog's behavior would get worse before getting better and, above all, the consequences of isolation on a dog's mind.
I get how tough it is for a dog, in general, and for a bully, specifically, to be away from its pack. Heck, I've seen it firsthand and it isn't nice at all. But as in the book and as per the trainer, that is to be used as a last resort, and this is what this kind of treatment was.
To be honest, if it was somebody else that was going through this and they told me, I would probably be doing all this considerations myself. Sometimes I do wonder if this is just fruitless and if I am taking the easy way out, only ignoring the problem instead of just facing it. But every small step ahead (usually followed by 2 steps back, that's true), perceived as an overall improvement in Otto's condition, just gave us a bit of hope that maybe, if we keep pushing on, things will word. Also, this may be way too subjective to base a decision like that on, but the look on the trainer's face when she says she is sure things will work out well for Otto, have convinced me.
Lastly, I should add, there's no chunk of change involved. As we got Otto, we enrolled him in socialization/command training at a Puppy Kindergaten. What we had paid for included 32 lessons at their center and 4 private home lessons. When Otto's treatment started, he had already had all 4 home lessons and 31 of his classes. We talked to them worried that this treatment, which includes weekly visits and e-mails everyday, might get a bit too pricey, but they told us it would not be charged. Otto's problem developed while in their watch, and as such they won't charge us anything for what is going on right now.
On the 29th it will be 2 months since we spayed Otto. On that occasion Otto was tested for everything a blood sample could tell, and he was as normal as normal can be. After the 29th, when the hormones already produced by his testicles are supposed to have disappeared, we are going to get him tested again.
I'll be sure to let you know when we test him again and the results we get back.
I have been swamped without much time to communicate but I want you to know I am constantly thinking of Otto and believing that your stout efforts must be rewarded.... you have gone more than the extra miles... and that can't be ignored!! Good luck, keep informing us.
Thank you very much for your kind words. It's nice to know there are people who care, and all this attention we got to Otto's problem in this forum sure helped us keep going.
Otto came back home today. We were excited because we thought that, since he was doing well before leaving, and because there was the possibility he would stay another week, coming back early meant good news.
But the news aren't that good.
I don't have his full report with me right now, but I'll say what I remember.
According to the dog behaviorist, he identified in Otto not only SOA, but also some more-than-mild OCD.
Otto's situation is not simple. To help with his OCD, it would be better for him not to have a very strict routine and to give him plenty of exercise. However, he's more prone to having his SOA fits the more tired he is, so we'll have to work hard to find the right balance for him.
One thing he said that I liked is that he doesn't recommend medications for Otto. In his case, medications would only numb him down and not treat the symptoms themselves, besides eating away Otto's liver and shortening even more his expected life span.
In short, since for us getting rid of Otto is not an option, we will learn to give Otto the best life he can. We have already identified signs that tell us when he's about to go red, and we will keep learning and try to manage the situation to the best of our capacity.
He also said Otto is a special dog. He is one of the most social dogs he's met and the way Otto is always looking for eye contact shows just how aware and ready to please he is. That was nothing new to us though.
We will keep counting on their help when we need, and of course we will get back to this forum to give updates on his situation should anything change.
Thanks a lot for everybody's patience with my long posts and for your support. If it wasn't for this forum, we wouldn't even have known we had a problem before it was too late.
In other words, I've come to know Otto through your posts and I do want to hear how he's doing. Want to cheer when he has good days, and I'm sure others would like to continue to offer some help when you have bad days, too.
We have been keeping him on a schedule, giving him plenty of rest time by himself, but also giving him more and more time together with us.
His overall behavior has greatly improved, as has his attitude towards us. He is much more obedient than before, but still a 10 month old puppy, so every once in a while we have something to correct, but even those corrections have been much better accepted by him.
Also, his trainers are now helping us finding specialists who can help us or give us a second opinion. Right now we are getting in touch with the President of the Japanese Veterinary Society for the Study of Animal Behavior. He's not been too active, but when presented with Otto's case, he's shown some interest and now we are working on scheduling an appointment. I'll keep you posted!
The thing is, since this will be no ordinary consultation at the vet, we are trying to arrange our schedule so our trainer can go with us.
My Japanese is good enough to have everyday conversations and such, but since this time we want to have a more in-depth talk with the vet, and I am afraid I won't be able to grasp all the technical and medical lingo, the trainer has volunteered to go with us. We are probably doing it some time this week or next week.
The language barrier sure can be frustrating sometimes.
:-B