Demodectic Mange history, but recent skin scrape shows negative while skin says otherwise?

Vmembry

Hello,

My name is Victoria, and my 8 month old bull terrier's name is Zsasz. I'm in DIRE need of advice on what's happening because his veterinarian (whom I've read/heard nothing but glowing reviews of) is brushing off whatever ailment is attacking my Bubby's skin. I know no one here is probably a vet, but I don't think I only need a vet's opinion. I think I need a seasoned bull terrier owners opinion because I don't know where to turn, or what to do, and I don't think his licensed veterinarian does either.

History:

He first started showing signs of strange rust colored patches of hair, with little dark colored specks that looked like little blackheads in mid-April. Which I simply assumed was dirt from (the then 4 month old puppy) playing outside and rolling around in the grass. Especially since when I would give him a bath the dark colored specks would wash away. I did a little research in this time and read that adding apple cider vinegar to his water could help whatever was going on. So I tried this approach, much to his dislike, with no change in the patches. But instead gradually turning into larger patches with significant hair loss, and even more little blackhead-like specks in areas. This is when I knew something was terribly wrong.

On May 10th I took him to a vet where he was skin scraped positive for Demodectic Mange, and immediately began Mitaban dips. That vet then also prescribed Bravecto (once a month) due to recent studies finding that this helped maintain demodectic mange flare-ups. From then on (May 20th, June 3rd, June 17th, and June 28th) he would go to a new different vet for Mitaban dips with little improvement each time, only OUTRAGEOUS amounts of hair loss. On the second to last visit with the new vet, he was prescribed an antibiotic as well in hopes to cut down the amount of dips remaining. Then just 9 days later at his last dip he looked a million times better, and skin scrap showed he was clear of the mites.

Below are photos taken on May 26th, days after his second Mitaban dip, but just before the antibiotics were introduced.

Current:

But now exactly a month later, July 27th, I took him back to the vet because he was showing all the same early signs as before of the mites; increased hair loss, scratching, biting/licking, and rust colored patches in different areas than before. However his skin scrape showed negative, and the vet made it a point to say that his skin looked "great". I assure you his skin did not look great then, and has gradually gotten worse with his hair loss getting as bad as it was the first time I suspected something was wrong. Instead all they did was prescribe him an antibiotic (Amoxicillin) for his sneezing, which did nothing for his skin, as suspected.

Today, August 12th, I've taken some photos of the areas that are concerning with hopes someone can tell me anything about what it looks like or could be.

Other:

• He's on the same puppy food as he was when we received him, Diamond Naturals - Small breed puppy. From what the breeder told us, his mother was also on Diamond Naturals brand. The breeders as well as the two veterinarians he's seen have said that this food is one of the best on the market. I made it a point to ask the second/new vet if his food could be the cause, and they said no, that things like stress and weather change can cause the mites to bite. However, I've read otherwise; Another reason I think I the need advice of a bull terrier owner just as much as a vet.

• He doesn't get table scraps, or any human food. He drinks tap water, occasionally bottled water if any unclaimed bottles linger in the fridge. So he's not being neglected or abused, like the first vet I went to insinuated... thus the reason we found a new vet.

• In the past I've bathed him in, Hartz Puppy shampoo from Walmart, AromaCare coconut conditioner and Hylyt shampoo with essential fatty acids for dry/sensitive skin from PetCo. Then once I thought maybe these were the cause, I began bathing him in gold Dial antibacterial bar soap.

• We're located in southern Indiana, in a valley where summers are always incredibly humid, and seasons change in the matter of a day. Zsasz loves to play outside and roll around in grass, but I've noticed that when he comes in from playing his tummy is broken out in red. It's never raised, or has texture to it, just red. He never acts like it hurts or bothers him, and it goes away by the next morning. But it did cause me to ask his new vet if the weather could be the irritant? They basically said that as far as we are into the summer the mites have subsided, and that the red tummy was more likely an allergy to grass and to give him Benadryl twice a day. This approach didn't completely solve the problem, but it definitely toned the redness down when he would come in from playing. However it has had no effect on the patches that I was curious about on the recent July 27th visit.

As I've said I don't know what to do, or who to ask at this point, and I can't sit back and let my Bubby suffer. I just hope my excessive amount of information can trigger a solution from someone who may have experienced this before.

Thank you for the read,

Zsasz and Victoria

swbaggies

Hi... I am far from an expert but my dog has/had exactly the same issue and his skin looked very very similar. I was told by two vets it was a yeast infection and treated accordingly, his nails got better but his skin got worse. After messaging @Cfols25 who was wonderful and in a similar position i tried another vet and they diagnosed Demodex mange and started treatment. I was also told he had an underlying infection that antibiotics should short. 

I was advised it would take 90 days and to continue course of treatment all way though. I can honestly say his sore patches and red patches are ALOT better and hair is starting to grow back. I would go as far as to say he looks as healthy now as when he first came.

Like you nothing had changed in his diet, i was told by the final vet (well known as the best skin vet on the island) that it is demodex mange, he would of got it from moms milk, he will always have it in his system its just a case of managing it and keep his overall ammune system up as this impacts it too.

The first pic is now, the other three are 3 weeks ago (the 3 weeks ago are actually good pics, up close it was sore and alot redder)

swbaggies

I forgot to add he has only been under treatment since Aug 1st and the differnence now is huge

Djammy

Victoria, welcome to the forum.

First of all, I can sadly not tell you what exactly the problem is. But I can tell you some things you can do.
On a side note: As you already have noticed at this point, skin scrapings of mites do not always display positive results, even though mites may still be present. Also mites are very persistent inhabitants, which makes diagnosis and treatment pretty laborious in general.

Just as you do at this point I would probably start asking myself, if it could be something else. But the truth is, it could very well still be the mites.

If his belly gets red on the grass, I would avoid any contact with the grass or shower him right after he went on the grass.
Our dog is probably reacting to pesticides on our lawn (sadly we have no influence on what’s being sprayed). So, even if I shower her afterwards, she WILL start biting her feet. The result is that meanwhile I do no longer allow her on our lawn AT ALL, which solved that problem for us.


Immune system

The most important thing to do is support his immune system. We have that topic over and over here. Somehow it is something obviously rarely discussed by vets, who often mainly focus in the ailment itself and not at the big picture.
If he is not on a supplement right now, I would suggest to get him on Nupro or NuVet.

http://www.nuvet.com/
http://www.nuprosupplements.com/

Note: This will NOT HEAL or solve the problem. BUT it does something else that is really important!
Supporting the immune response is like arming your Bullie against skin issues and other ailments. So his body is just better prepared to deal with those things and breakouts do not immediately overwhelm his entire system.


More help

Another help from the inside is salmon oil.

https://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-All-Natural-Supplement-Pump-Bottle-Dispenser/dp/B0002ABR6E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471096144&sr=8-1&keywords=grizzly+salmon+oil

It contains omega 3 fatty acids, acts anti-inflammatory and balances the skin texture. It’s also a light natural sun screen for the dog.
It does nothing against mites, but it helps dry spots on the skin and a balanced overall skin texture in general.

For dry spots you can also use Virgin (unrefined) Coconut oil as a rub/ cream. It does nothing against mites, but has anti-inflammatory abilities and helps the skin heal.
You can also feed one teaspoon full of it daily. Your dog will love it!

Both Salmon oil and Virgin Coconut oil also act as a natural sunscreen for your dog's skin from the inside. And I rub my dog's nose with coconut oil to protect her from thee outside, too (it's said to have SPF4).

As for the ACV - try mixing it into a spoon full of cottage cheese for example (if he tolerates dairy products), where the smell and taste are not as present. Because it is actually good stuff that also supports the immune system.
I mix it into the fresh food of my dog, and she loves it.

As your dog has been on antibiotics, it is also a good idea to make sure his gut flora has a chance to recover from that. While antibiotics are strong against microorganisms when secondary infections occur in open sores from the scratching, they are often harsh on the guts.
Our guts are the “headquarters” of our immune system which is why it is important that everything is ok there.
Probiotics out of a box (formulated for DOGS!) OR yogurt with living cultures/ cottage cheese (if the dog tolerates dairy products) are all great options.


Benadryl

DOES NOT HEAL! It is an anti-itch medication that does only help as long as it is taken. The results in different dogs vary largely from working perfectly to doing nothing at all. So, just to make sure, this is only to relieve temporary itch. It's not a useless or bad medication, BUT it cannot do anything against hair loss, mites or infected skin.


Body Care

Soothing the itch however, is a good idea, because the more he bites an scratches himself the higher are the chances of secondary infection. And this often is the final stroke that completely crushes an already impaired immune system and often the point when things escalate.

On your pictures things do by far not look as bad as you have described them to be, honestly. I have seen far worse images and experienced much worse in reality with my own last Bull Terrier.
But I am only mentioning it to let you know that it actually could be much worse. Right now you still seem to be on a good path.

If you notice open sores, you should use disinfectant wipes or washes (for dogs) to reduce the risk of secondary infection.
You can bathe the dog with gentle dog shampoo and conditioner once a week or as directed by your vet.
I personally would get rid of Walmart products.
And PLEASE especially on a dog that already has skin problems NEVER use products formulated for humans on his skin!!!
These products do not have the correct ph that your dog’s skin needs, and their use only causes additional dryness of the skin.

This product line is GREAT! and even used by groomers:
https://www.amazon.com/s?field-keywords=natures's+specialties

They have all kinds of different formulas for different skin and coat types. Shampoos and conditioners. They last really long, because you always only need a very small amount.

If you want to use a medicated shampoo for disinfection, this is one option:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0078LOU3W/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You can also make Epsom salt baths for disinfection or use the AVC externally for that. But be careful - both substances sting in open sores.



Food

Although I do not trust the Diamond brand, I do see that this food is among the better rated ones.
In your situation I would probably still change foods and try to find a GRAIN-FREE brand.
This is something said without any scientific basis, just confirmed by experience: While grains are rarely really the trigger for allergies themselves, in some dogs they really seem to give the digestive system a hard time.
Dogs with skin issues that are switched from food containing grains to grain-free options often show improvement in digestion and skin pattern after a short while. Provided, of course, that the new food does not include any ingredient the dog actually reacts allergic to.
While in the course of evolution the dog’s digestion system seems to have adjusted and is now able to process an ingredient that originally was never part of the nutrition of their ancestors, some dogs even today do not seem to be “quite as adjusted”.
To me it feels like the main reason may be the excessive use of grains as cheap fillers. In small amounts they would probably not make any problems.

But if you take a look at the bag of your Diamond food, rice is among the first few ingredients. Ingredients are listed in descending order related to their amount in the formula. So, it’s obvious that rice is a big part in your dog’s food currently. And that happens in A LOT of brands (even the higher priced ones). As we do not have any influence on the amount in the manufactured food, that makes it advisable in general to try and avoid the grains altogether in those manufactured foods and choose the grain-free options.

Kibble brands I can recommend are:
- Victor Dog food
- Sammy Snacks
- Canidae
- Dr. Tim’s Natural
- Performatrin Ultra

There are more, others may be able to recommend.
Check back on every single product on dogfoodadvisor.com and make your own decision. For comparison it always also helps to browse through reviews on Amazon. The food should always have higher ratings on both platforms. On Dogfoodadvisor the ratings are a classification made by that website, while on Amazon the ratings are customer reviews.

If I were you, I would also try to at least partly get my dog on freshly prepared or fresh frozen food. It is just SO MUCH better for their health than that pressed factory stuff and does not cost a lot more than that bag of Diamond food.

Other than that I can only recommend to switch vets another time, if you are not satisfied with what the current vets tell you.
They have been using the standard protocol of tests and treatment for mange. So, if it IS indeed mange, I can not see that they have done anything wrong regarding this particular problem.

I am sad that general nutrition advice, the role of the immune system and proper body care are often only side topics at vets, if at all, when it comes to skin ailments. I don't know, if the expensive medication just sells better.

All of the things suggested above are mainly intended to help your dog’s body and immune system to fight the ailments better and be better prepared in the future once you are rid of the problem.
Such problems DO take time. Sadly months are completely normal. So are relapses.
Which makes it even more important that your little pal’s skin and immune system get some help, too.

philsergeant

I'm in the car, so can't answer much, but am pleased to see Djammy was here already, she's a walking Bullie Encyclopedia ... First is the grain free, must be grain-free food; Second to hardly ever listen to vets... most of them say; mange because they heard the word in college... Third, please list ALL meds that he takes, even like flea/ tick preventative... Fourth, off the grass if possible, [I know that's a tough one], especially if it's grass that gets fertilized or bug treated in any way... At least until winter. Wash every day, or every couple of days if he goes in the wild.... ( by the look of the good washing stuff you use that'll probably be a bit pricey   )... More later.... Oh, and Welcome Victoria!!!

Laylas_Mommy

Hi there! I'm not a vet by any means but I can share my experience with demodetic mange. Layla was diagnosed with this when she was 4 months old and had several spots that look exactly like your baby's. The vet put her on oral doses of ivomec everyday. After 3 months it had helped her some but not completely so the vet prescribed another 3 months.... it seemed to me that there was no change at all the second go around and when the vet did another scrape and she still had mites I decided to do a lot of research (hours and hours of reading old forums here) what I found is that mites are a normal thing found on a dog and it's their response to them that cause the hair loss and such. A weak immune system will prevent them from fighting them off and stress will make it worse. Dips and the medicines will cause added stress and weaken the immune system even further. Layla also ended up with a slight yeast battle due to her immune system being low (again the ivomev) It really is a battle the good getting rid of the bad only to make more room for a different bad if that makes sense. So I stopped giving Layla her medicine and upped my game and it's made a huge difference. First everything @Djammy recommended is accurate I can attest to that. Layla gets grainfree food, 1 tablespoon of yogurt twice a day, grizzly salmon oil or 1 tbsp virgin coconut oil (I rotate) with her breakfast, and 1 tbsp of apple cider vinegar with dinner (layla will only eat it mixed with her food). Nuvet is amazing. Since I quit her medicine I have upped her nuvet to 2 tablets one in the morning one in the evening (will continue this for at least a month to try and get her immune system back up, spoke to a representative at Nuvet to confirm this was correct), 1 Benadryl before bed (for any itch comfort helps with healing and at night they are more likely to scratch because they aren't distracted) at night when I'm giving her a rub I will massage her with virgin coconut oil paying a little extra attention to her spots. Also if you don't do weakly baths that helps I rotate baths with zymox medicated shampoo and a regular puppy shampoo (so her skin doesn't get overly dry I was told baby shampoo was acceptable but you might want a second opinion on that I haven't tried) I have attached photos from a week ago when I stopped and today. Not only do I see a huge difference in her skin but her energy and general happiness. (I hadn't realized she was suppressed for lack of a better word) I honestly don't know if this is the "cure " and I am not a vet but I know how frustrating it can be and thought if nothing else it would give you hope.

Laylas_Mommy

Layla's progress pictures

Djammy

@Laylas_Mommy

So happy to read that things work out for you. Everything I wrote about skin issues in Bull Terriers I had to learn the hard way with my last Bull Terrier Fancy.

She was afflicted with so many skin issues and it really made my heart bleed seeing her suffer so many times.

I hope that both of your dogs will have a healthier life backed up by strongly supported immune systems.

If back then I had known everything I know today, I would probably have been able to spare Fancy at least part of her suffering much sooner.

But unfortunately that's how life works: Live and learn.

Vmembry

@swbaggies Thank you for giving me some insight on your recent battle with this type of mange. For having this irritating skin condition, your little guy sure does keep a sweet smile on that face!! :x What's really struck me as odd is that your vet told you 90 days, whereas mine said 60 days, for expected treatment time. The first vet I went to said my Bubby's mange was scattered, and had great potential to become a huge infection and hassle if we didn't start some type of treatment ASAP. But then the second vet said within 60 days he should be free of them. At the time the estimated treatment time didn't seem to fit how bad the first vet made his outbreak sound, but I didn't question it since everything I've heard has been great about this vet  . But now I'm starting to really wish I would've :-S Anyhow I'm so happy to see your little guy is on his way to getting better! He's handsome as could be!!

swbaggies

Your more than welcome and like i said i am no expert and not diagnosing your bully

I would also not take any notice of the treatment length, firstly he had an infection too which had to be treated first as lower immune system would delay treatment. Also, Im a brit in Thailand and as i have said previously on here vets in Thailand is not a well paid job so it is done for the love of animals rather than a career and as such knowledge and equipment is nit always up to scratch but hpefully i have found a good vet now. Recommended by other expats too which helps.

Thank you for your kind words.... he is 6 months old now and vet is very happy with him, i cant believe how much he is growing though...... weighed in today at 40llbs, i was expecting that to be he fully grown weight lol