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Agression?

I have a 4 month old bull terrier who I've had since 8 weeks old, his name is Sergeant Pepper, Sarge for short.  I am head over heels for him and love him- I've always wanted a bull terrier since I was a little girl.  Sadly, he is very aggressive, and I've done nothing but show him love since day one.  Sarge shows aggression toward my son- has lounged at him while his back is turned toward him multiple times when he was about 3 months.  (My son is 6 and has never disciplined the puppy and is very loving toward him)  He also has food aggression toward the other dog (a pug) and has to be leashed while feeding and separated.  I started taking him to a trainer right around when he turned 3 months old because I wanted to try to fix this.  Sarge is a genius and learns VERY FAST and has excelled at training and has not been aggressive toward my son recently- however I keep them separated for the most part or Sarge on his leash with the prong collar(the trainer recommended) while they interact with one another.  Yesterday he got a hold of one of the pug's toys and I could not get it from him without him growling and trying to bite me-I had to dump food on the floor for him to drop it without me or anyone else being attacked.  (the toy was very small and he was trying to swallow it and would have choked)  Today, my grandfather brought him over a present which was a stuffed squirrel toy and he was playing, the pug came over toward him-he lunged at her and I caught him mid-air (thank god) and held him until I could get someone to put the other dog downstairs so I knew she was safe.  Sarge did not try to bite me, and in fact, he normally does not ever show aggression toward me, but does to everyone else.  One thing I find strange is that if he is playing with a rubber toy- he is fine with the pug being around and runs around her wagging his tail.  Both of these instances, the toys were "life-like"..and he went insane.  I'm really afraid because had I not caught him mid-air, I'm afraid he may have mangled the pug.  He bites a lot, but I think it's more puppy-play and he gets a bit carried away and has bruised my skin on occasion (but it's not aggressive like the other situations I have written about).  Sarge shows me soooo much LOVE for the most part and gets two nice walks a day for his energy and also I play with his chew toy throwing it down the hall so he can run back and forth. I had one vet suggest to get him fixed- one said wait until 6 months... but both didn't believe that he is aggressive.  However, he is very friendly for the most part towards people- it's just these types of instances where he does show aggression.  I love him with all of my heart, he is a cuddle bug to me and I never want to have to get rid of him.  PLEASE HELP.  Also, we are still seeing the trainer weekly, which he LOVES.  I attached 2 photos below of him- he's the most handsome guy!!
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Comments

  • edited November 2015
    Your puppy has decided to be the chief and rule like an a**hole - because he can!
    Bull Terriers don’t just want to be dogs, they want to be family members and know their determined place in the family.
    If nobody sets the rules, they will make their own rules.
    Right now his behavior is not that unusual. Your puppy is still young. But he needs to get some guidance immediately or this is a recipe for disaster when he matures!
    Going after the kid or the other dog is an absolute NOGO. Catching him before he can cause damage is a matter of luck. He needs to be shown and told unmistakably that this kind of behavior is not being tolerated - EVER!

    You are controlling the situation right now and interfere and manage, which is good and you should keep doing that. But that’s only half of the plan.

    Bull Terriers have a very strong mindset and just as other male dogs, especially young male Bull Terriers often tend to develop some dominance issues, if not stopped in time. THIS is your time!
    He is being nice to you to the point he benefits from it - that is not respect. But respect is what he really needs to learn immediately!
    Right now in the house he seems to be following instincts, not rules.

    For the food guarding feed him ONLY from your hand for a few weeks until he stops the guarding, show him that you are the leader, providing the food. (Keep the pug away during this procedure, so the Bull Terrier can focus on you). Feed him on fixed schedule, so he can develop routines. Dogs need and love routines. It gives them a sense of security and they like to settle in those routines. That goes for bad, but luckily also for GOOD routines.
    Toys that are being fought over or not given away on demand are taken away and only reintroduced slowly once he has learned that he will not be allowed to force his will against anyone by aggression. Neither he nor the pug will have those toys. If that means no toys for a while, that’s how it is.

    Look up “pin method” or “pinning” in the search of this forum. I think your dog could really benefit from it.
    But you should be really sure that you know how to do it in order to protect your dog and yourself.

    Also Bull Terriers need sufficient exercise. Wear him out outside by throwing balls or if toys are tabu, animate him to play yourself.
    Omit dominance games or competitive games for a while, such as tug.

    Keep up with the obedience training, because that teaches him to comply in a fun way.

    I could say a lot more, but the bottom line is: Your dog needs RULES and a strong and consistent hand.
    Right now he is just a little dominant. That can be fixed. But if nobody corrects this behavior, this could be a real problem one day and pose dangers to your kid and the smaller dog - if it does not already.

    When we got our second Bull Terrier, I got blessed with an a**hole myself. Blessed, because it gave me the chance to learn that they only are a**holes, if you let them.
    They want rules and they need them. A no tolerance policy - as hard as it may feel right now - is giving your dog the BEST chance to lead a happy life. Because once he knows what’s being tolerated and what isn’t, he will be happy to follow those rules and by this have a great chance to never get into any serious trouble caused by his behavior.

    He is so cute outside! Now give him the chance to mature into the most lovable individual from the inside. He is a good dog - you need to help him show it!

    And … if you find one, I’d REALLY suggest to consult a trainer experienced with this breed, because many dog trainers that are not familiar with Bull Terriers are just as overwhelmed by their personality as the owners.
  • philsergeantphilsergeant Palm City, Florida, USA
    edited November 2015
    No need for me to reinforce everything Djammy reports... If you read around the forum you will find dozens of similar owners who have had unruly puppies...the little thing is 4 months old for heavens sake, hardly out of diapers... He should be afraid of his own shadow, not intimidating anyone in the family. You have to take charge, not subcontract control to some trainer... That could only make it worse if Sargy-Wargy starts to believe that the only place he needs to behave is away from home. I don't mean to sound unkind but if you don't get tough things will get rough. Thankfully, if you do enough reading here you will find many other young Bullie owners that have followed the same advise and have very well behaved Bullies as a result. Don't give up... Just remember, all discipline must come with love.
    In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
  • Philsergeant, I don't think that your underhanded-ness was necessary, but thank you for your feed back.  Djammy, I did try the pinning method in the past but he only became more aggressive when I did that.  The trainer that I have has actually bred bull-terriers in the past and says how strong minded they are.  I have seen improvement with the biting and going toward my son.  As soon as he went after the pug for the toy, I actually threw it in the trash.  Sarge has a rubber chicken toy and he is fine with that and shows no aggression, so I will let him continue with that.  On the evening walk we do run him around in a field and he loves it! I also have a consistent feeding schedule as you have suggested above. Also, he does allow my fiancé and it to pet him and move food bowels while feeding-however, he's aggressive if the pug comes in the room.  I walk him every time the pug eats dinner because he freaks out so bad- to keep them separated. Thank you so much Djammy for your reply and I will continue to read more.  If pinning doesn't work for a certain dog, what would you suggest otherwise?    
  • edited November 2015
    @SargesMommy

    First, let me say I've got the impression that you feel somehow offended by philsergeant's comment. I can assure you that he would never comment in underhanded or offending ways. He is being a great help for a lot of people in this forum all the time and his advice is real, as is his sense of humor, you may perhaps just have taken the wrong way.

    As for the pinning, there sure are other ways, such as timeouts and a lot of training.
    But before talking about other ways, please allow me to try and make sure that we’re on the same page regarding the pin method, because this actually is a very powerful and successful method. But it comes in several different levels so to speak, and the amount of pressure to be applied needs to be adjusted to the individual dog and situation in order for the method to work and lead to the desired results.
    Maybe you can just describe when you have used it in the past and what exactly you did.

    Also, if you don’t mind me asking, besides the prong collar how exactly did the trainer advise you to deal with the situation and how did his suggestions work out for you so far?
    What is his opinion of the entire situation?
    Currently to me it sounds like things could become dangerous for your kid some day, if the aggression can not be controlled. Also the pug seems to be anything but safe in the house. What does he think about that?
    Don't get me wrong. I am not questioning his competence, just trying to see the big picture here.
    Because you already have a trainer who indeed IS experienced with Bull Terriers, but still feel so helpless that you seek help in this forum. That tells me some things are still going wrong somehow and I try to understand where exactly the problem is.
  • The trainer recommends that while Sarge is out of his crate to always have him on a lead with his collar and when he misbehaves, to give the collar a "pop." He also told us that if we can not keep full attention on him to correct him in this manner right when a situation occurs, he should be in his crate.  Honestly, he has slowed with the biting and what not, however the whole reason I came on this forum is because I want it to come to an halt all together.
    I used the pinning method when he would growl or snap in the past and at first he would submit and look away, but then he would kind of tilt his neck forward and try to bite bite bite, and growl- than he would submit and upon release, he would be more in like "bring it mode".  After having that happen, I read up on it and got nervous because some said that this makes aggression a bigger issue.  
    In my opinion, the dog is VERY territorial of me and seems almost jealous of my son.  Even if the dog is near me and my fiancé comes near, he will growl at him..  It's been like 2 months now, we have not allowed him on furniture or to sleep with us- so that he knows his place, as a dog.  Also, we were feeding him after the pug, so he would know his "pecking order" so to speak, but the vet recommended not to do this because it will send him in a tizzy and only make things worse with the food aggression.  I bought a slow feeder bowl and I think that has helped a little because he would literally vacuum it up with out chewing.  
    Also, I would like to add that everything we do during training is followed through and practiced at home.  The actual training he learns weekly, we do twice a day for 15-30mins.(As suggested by the trainer)  The trainer told us basic obiendiance training should help with all of the other issues.  The thing is, Sarge is VERY VERY respondent to training because when he is correct, there is a treat involved.  Take away the treats, he wants to do what ever he wants.  The trainer recommends recording his "aggression fits" to get a better idea of it- but truthfully it's hard to do because you don't know when its going to happen and I do not have time to take out my phone and record when it does occur.  I can honestly say it has become less, however I just wanted some more opinions and information because I think the best thing is to gather as much resources and information as I can to aid the problem the best way that I can.  I am worried for the pug and also my son-- because while it has become less, he is becoming larger and I can not have this at all.  Thank you again for your responses.

    Jamie 
  • edited November 2015
    Hello Jamie
    Thank you for taking the time to write down more details. This is very helpful to understand the situation better.
    First of all, I would strongly suggest to work on the food guarding by hand feeding for a while, like already said. NO more food from a bowl, only from the hand of the feeder. The feeder is the adult/ are the adults in the household, who are being growled at. This will also easily help you control his eating speed, the same effect as the slow feeding bowl, only now he has to interact with you in order to get his food. Huge difference!

    It is a good thing that he loves the training. You can also use this and let him work for his part of his daily food ratio. Play things like fetch with a feed bag and reward him for bringing it to you by letting him take some pieces out of the bag. If you are afraid he will take off with the bag, put a long lead on it to keep control.
    He needs to learn that the people are the ones GIVING the food, not taking it away. And if he does good things, he’s getting more.

    This way at the same time he learns that giving things away does not mean he looses, because right after that he will be rewarded with praise and food/ treats.
    You can also train the “Leave it” and the “Let go” command with him using his food or treats. First the not so attractive objects, later with toys he was making a fuss about.
    Also - just in case you are not already handling things this way - don’t just take things away from him. Try to make him give them away on his own and make a trade: He gives a toy away - even a not so attractive one he gives up easily - he gets a treat. If that does not work for you right away, slowly work with him on the “Leave it” and the “Let go” command with a neutral object and skip toys for now.
    Also praise him/ reward every sign of good behavior (this can also be done with part of his daily food ratio or treats). This will show him which behavior you WANT from him. Is he nice around the pug eating a treat? Praise, reward! I he staying calm around your son in a situation he did not stay calm in before? Praise, reward!

    As your dog seems to be very fixated on you, I would at least suggest that both, you as well as your husband should do all of these things with him. To be honest, I’d even start off with letting your husband do the feeding and rewarding while urging you to stay a little more neutral (not ignoring) with the dog for a little while - leaving most of the cuddling and affection to your husband, so Sarge gets a chance to focus on the other person and really try and make new friends in the household. As I understood you are the one least growled at and he growls more often at your husband. That’s why I am suggesting it.

    As for the pug I agree with the vet that putting some kind of order during the feeding will probably not work already or make things even worse.
    It can spark jealousy and in the worst case cause more aggression against the pug. For now I think it is a good idea to stick to feeding them separated (different rooms or times) as you already do and not have Sarge associate any kind of order with that. At the most I’d try and work on that later, once you have a better general control over the food guarding and insecurities.

    Not letting Sarge reside at any “dominance” supporting platforms such as the couch or bed for now is probably ok, IF the same goes for the pug. But I would only do that, if this has sparked problem situations in the past, such as pushing the pug from the couch or his favorite spots.
    Dogs have an understanding of “unfairness” and if he feels that the pug is being privileged in certain situations that’s not helping his jealousy.
    Right now he is already getting a “special treatment” and he feels that. Your second explanation paints a far more detailed picture of your dog not having found his place in the family yet and going against everything he feels threatening his position or privileges.
    The kid and the pug are the smallest members of the household and obviously least respected by him.
    At the same time they are probably the two individuals he feels his privileges and rights most threatened by.
    It will be hard to teach him to respect them, but it is not impossible to teach him to accept them and to know that he is not allowed to go after them.

    I am a little skeptical about the prong collar and keeping him in his crate all the time.
    But I think this suggestion is probably more meant to help to control the situation and avoid accidents than it is meant to have any kind of educational effect on the dog.
    Having a collar and maybe a short training leash (http://www.amazon.com/Lupine-Training-Leash-Larger-1-Inch/dp/B0041S3824/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447685107&sr=8-1&keywords=short+leash) on him all the time is probably a good idea to be able to get a good hold of him quickly when his aggression occurs.
    Based on that I would allow him to run free around the house as often as possible in order to enable a normal day for him (But I would not leave him alone with the kid or the pug for now!!!)

    Regarding the pinning:
    The pin method is meant to make the dog give in and submit to your will. If the dog does not submit or starts fighting after being pinned, chances are that pinning can spark more aggression, because the dog may have not really decided to give in and is perhaps the type that rather flees forward (attacks) than runs. In that case and looking at all of the other circumstances it may also add to the dog’s feeling of being treated unfair, which bears the potential of building mistrust in you as the owners.
    When using the pin method, it is vital that your dog in any other regard knows that you love and want him! That’s what philsergeant meant by saying discipline has to come with love.
    With pinning there is only a thin line between the dog accepting you as the one making the rules while knowing that you love him and he can trust you and your decisions AND the dog deciding to back away from you or lunge at you.
    As you have obviously found pinning not effective for you and your dog may rather react by going forward than giving in, building trust, routines and confidence and letting him feel that he is an accepted member of the family overall may be the better way to go in your case.
    Here is an interesting article on another view of “dominance issues” and another look at the pin method (alpha roll), which may help you to a better understanding of what your dog is feeling right now and which measures may be a good idea:
    https://apdt.com/pet-owners/choosing-a-trainer/dominance/

    I am actually a torn supporter of the pin method. It can be really effective (in our case it helped big time!) with an unmannerly dog that is going past limits every now and then out of mischief. But it really depends on the personality of the dog and the owner, if intimidation will help and not damage the relationship.
    In your case your dog shows signs of insecurity and a reason why he shows a “bring it on” attitude after being pinned may be that he thinks he needs to FIGHT for his standing in the family. That means he is insecure about who he can really trust and feels like he can only depend on himself. Your dog seems to be lacking security and the confidence that he is an equal member of the family.

    Under the given circumstances, I’d focus on enforcing every positive behavior, giving him love and attention. He needs to associate good things with ALL of the family members in the house. If you feel it’s safe, you can also let your son give him a treat for being a good dog. So he learns there are good things coming from your son (only if that’s safe to do!), too.
    At the same time you should make good use of removing privileges and attention right after he shows unwanted behavior so he can make up his mind about, if he really wants to loose attention and good things over his actions.

    Jumping at your son may be an act of playfulness rather than aggression - I really don't know, because I have never witnessed the situation myself. Bull Terriers are very strong and at the same time have hardly any awareness of their own physical strength.
    Nonetheless, going after the pug and the kid must be disrupted and especially in these cases Sarge still needs to feel immediate consequences to learn he's not allowed to do this. But instead of keeping him in his crate, I’d try ignoring him for a while right after that happened (all of you) and maybe keeping him in a separated place for some time. Not his crate, but another room, for example. His crate should be a place he feels good in, a refuge, not a cage to confine him over longer periods of time. His crate is his room. Just as routines and love he needs his own places.
    After the “silent treatment” is over, and he is behaving normal, he should be cuddled and played with etc. again and really feel he is part of everything as long as he is behaving friendly.
    I would also try to really figure out the situations sparking aggression in order to determine, if there are constellations with the kid and the pug that can just be avoided by making different arrangements.
    I am pretty sure that these are mostly situations of jealousy or Sarge feeling disadvantaged.
    Just try to really remember the circumstances right before the aggression happens. You do not necessarily need that on video. If you try and analyze the situations right after it happens, you may be able to find a pattern. Most of the time it's the little things.

    This way will be a much longer route than the pinning, involving training, managing and controlling in the meantime and take a long time to achieve your goal. During this time it is vital to be consistent.
    The measures should aim on protecting your kid and the pug and building the trust of your dog in you.
    I think you already know that, but maybe my post is helping you to find a few new perspectives and some more measures to take.
  • I really, really appreciate all of your information.  I felt the same way about the crate, but I'm not a professional so I doubt myself.  When I brought him home at 8 weeks, he was vomiting at night and come to find out- when he was with the breeder, ate a BIG hair tie with massive amounts of hair in it.  He was very ill, vomit and diarrhea and I got stomach x-rays and followed the vets care.  Sarge had ALL OF MY ATTENTION while this went on.  Also, my fiancé was working nights at the time (until 2 months ago) so Sarge was sleeping with me EVERY night and we have developed a bond that no one else in the family has with him.  Sarge started with the aggression toward my fiancé when he was around more and not working nights and sleeping all day.  It was almost as if he felt in competition for attention.  This started early on, if I held him, he would growl if anyone came near me- if he was near me and someone hugged me, he would growl.  The vet suggested me not to hold him, but honestly it is hard and I don't want him to feel unloved.  Obviously I don't hold him now because he is pretty big, but i do sit with him and he will lay on my lap.
    My son does give him treats and actually Sarge, wags his tail, jumps up on him and kisses him when he comes home from school.  The same goes for my fiancé.  I'm going to really, really analyze the situation if there is a next time.  I believe both instances when he went to nip my son, one was in the kitchen and there was food (not sarges) being cooked.  The other time that comes to mind was in the dining room and but there was no food.  However, perhaps he realizes these are the places we eat and he feels threatened by my relationship with my son.  Since Sarge was able to eat, it has always been FAST FAST FAST and vacuum like.
    Sarge also can be friendly toward the pug at times, although his play is too rough for her..  but most of the time, he is on a mission to hump her.
    Your post has very much helped me, and I thank you so much.  I appreciate all the time you have spent reading my post throughly and responding!  I will keep you posted for sure!
    That is my son and sarge when he was about 9-10 weeks old in the photo
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  • edited November 2015
    Jamie, I wish you good luck with your problem, because Sarge is a beautiful dog, and a good one, too. I am sure about that. Bull Terriers are very special dogs, and sometimes when new to the breed it can be difficult to deal with so much personality.
    Just in case you like to read, there is a wonderful book about clicker training with Bull Terriers - a very rare combination :)
    http://www.amazon.com/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447718135&sr=8-1&keywords=when+pigs

    Even if you ever consider to actually do clicker training, this book is still worth reading, because it holds A TON of very useful information about this very special breed.

    I am sure that for the sake of your family, your son and both of your dogs you will make the right decisions and not give aggression a chance to poison the piece.

    I will be happy to hear how everything works out for you. And just in case - which I do not hope to happen - things get worse, don't hesitate to turn back to this forum full of great members and valuable advice to find more help.
  • I just so happen to have a kindle and enjoy a good read  :D
    I have on quick question that I didn't think about until right now,.... is it normal to find 3 teeth in 3 days?  The first one was embedded in the pug's toy! The second one, when he was eating was found- and this one, which seems more like a piece of tooth, was while he played with his kong toy. I tried to look in his mouth and noticed a visible area where the one tooth seems to have come from.  I know they're baby teeth but just wondering if you've ever experienced this?  I don't want to have to rename him gumby!! ha!!  Thanks again!
  • edited November 2015
    With adult teeth loosing even only one or so many at a time would be very alarming.

    But if those are his baby teeth, it can happen. No worries. Djamila actually lost teeth until her mouth was almost "empty" until her "adult rocks" broke out of her jaw. :)
    I only hope that the remains of the tooth that only came out partially will not cause any problems. But that will either reveal itself or should surface during his next routine vet check at the latest - which hopefully always includes a look into his mouth.

    Have fun with the book! :)
  • edited November 2015
    just this morning it came back to my mind that you wrote something about Sarge mounting (humping) the pug.
    Just in case this has not been discussed with the vet or trainer before:
    This is likely another try to show the pug who is the boss and should be intervened. I don't think there's need for any kind of punishment here, if he leaves the pug alone then - just interrupt the action.
    Sarge should feel as an equal member, but he should not be allowed to dominate other family members in any way either.
  • WOW (in regards to the empty mouth) He is defiantly chewing on anything for these babies to come out/come in!!  I actually knew it was a "dominance" thing because he did it to me at 9 weeks(before the trainer was involved) and I thought it was so unusual to do at such a young age, that's when I looked it up to learn about it.  Once in a while he tries to do it to me, but I stop him, like you said with no punishment. Seems like his personality sure matches his name, because he wants to be in charge so bad!  Back to the teeth, I can't wait for this to be over!! LOL He is so bite-y but the Kong toy seems to help, I just tell him no and put that in his mouth to replace it.


  • edited November 2015
    His teething could be the reason, why he is nipping a little more right now.
    It's a good thing to give him something to chew on - provides relief to many teething puppies.

    To stop nipping during play in his case, I’d interrupt play and cuddling every single time he gets too rough and ignore him for 5 minutes. Sooner or later he will get that nobody wants to play with a roughneck.

    Some suggest to yelp loud like a puppy, because allegedly that's how puppies tell each other when the playing gets too rough. But I am not sure, if in Sarge's case this would be a good idea, considering his attitude. The "silent treatment" leaves less space for him to feel superior.
  • Thank you again.  The yelping has always made him get more aggressive oddly enough, however the ignoring does bother him- so i've been doing that.  Sarge lost another tooth but, has been doing a lot better.  I find that if I go some where and leave him- he is more bitty when I come home.  I honestly think he gets pissed off.  The trainer says dogs do not have human characteristics like that, but I beg to differ.  
  • Really glad to hear that you're experiencing some progress.
    I guess what the trainer may have been trying to tell you is that dogs do not have the same understanding of time (and how much of it has passed) as we do. The dog can't tell, if you were away for 10 minutes or 2 hours.

    They certainly can be pissed off over not wanting to be alone - no matter how long. But if he does not have to sit and wait for hours and hours, it's still a good thing to get him used to being alone now and then, because you can't be around 24/7 all your life.
    Besides, there's hardly anything more heartwarming than a dog bursting with joy over welcoming his owner back home. :)
  • philsergeantphilsergeant Palm City, Florida, USA
    I'd just like to be argumentative ( for a complete change :-). ) ... Dogs can certainly tell time, not just how much time has lapsed, but what the time actually is. That is least of all the opinion of this dog ex-spurt ( well EBT ex-spurt anyhow, I recognize other breeds just pale) ... If you research the subject there are authorities that say that dogs can even sense when their owners are getting close to home, regardless of the time of day....
    In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
  • edited November 2015
    Sorry, if I put that wrong. I did not mean to say that dogs have NO sense of time. I agree with you Phil, as far as I myself believe as well that dogs have at least SOME sense of time, connected to certain events, noises, smells, circumstances, feelings and bodily functions (hunger, urge to “go” etc.). Just not the same way we humans handle time.
    Dogs are very, very good at reading situations and humans and developing routines connected to certain triggering and reoccurring events and I think that often tricks us into believing that they have a clock hidden in their belly or can actually tell the time by the hour. :)
    We often are amazed how much our dogs seem to be working like clockwork, always waking up at the same time in the morning, going to bed, wanting food at the same time or knowing when we come home etc.
    Then again we all know about things like circadian rhythm and the effects of rituals and fixed habits (also in humans).
    However, telling time like humans does require complex cognitive abilities, involving long term memory and looking into the future. Dogs are able to anticipate, but only based on past experience.

    Science still seems to be unclear about the real extend to that dogs are actually able to tell time. I can only talk about what I have read myself. I am not a scientist. And I for all know scientists believe that dogs are not able to tell the exact difference between time periods.
    However, they actually seem to be able to tell short from long in a way, only not exactly as we do it. Studies have revealed that dogs left alone only for a moment do greet their owners differently from dogs that have been alone for several hours.
    So my example of 10 minutes and 2 hours was indeed not a good choice.

    Here’s some better info than my words about the controversy, and the internet is full of it:
    http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/do-dogs-know-how-long-weve-been-gone
    http://www.animalplanet.com/pets/can-dogs-understand-time/

    Whoever scientist really hit the nail on the head, it IS and remains amazing, how dogs are able to adapt and handle time in SOME way!
  • Okay, so he has regressed a bit.  However, I believe it's because he's hitting puberty.  Dec. 29 he will be 6 months and this guy is humping like crazy!!  Of course I make him stop immediately.. but, now he bites when he is getting ready to hump or in the process of humping(when you try to get him off).  Soooo when I spoke to the vet, she had recommended getting him fixed at 6months (which I do intend on doing).  Do you often see males calm down with this after being fixed?  What is your opinions on it?  I've been trying to give him more freedom (going against what the trainer said, I don't believe being in a crate is going to fix him- I want him to learn how to function properly in the house)  He seems happy about it...but like the clown he is- (he isn't allowed on the couch) he always jumps on the couch and runs back and forth (which I think is pretty funny, although I do make him get down)  How can you blame the guy??? LOL  I do feel he listens pretty well and yesterday sat right by me in the kitchen as I cooked and enjoyed a few treats as reward for his good behavior.  I just don't think he needs to be in the crate like the trainer said "all the time"... I wouldn't want to be..and with all of his energy, that is torture!! 
  • edited December 2015




    He's 6 months old an full of energy. I think he is acting pretty normal. Just needs the time to grow up and mature. Some of them are wild and need more control and consistent and determined owners. Mila also did a lot of humping when little with her toys. I never considered that a problem as long as it does not involve members of the house or other animals - because humping can be a sign of the dog wanting to dominate others. And that is not acceptable.

    Not crating him all the time is good choice, if I were the one asked. I guess it does not hurt, if doggie actively learns to come down and have a calm time. But Bull Terriers do have energy, and they need outlets. Crating them for long periods does not help that. I don't understand the trainer's point here, if it is not just intended to prevent accidents.

    Regarding the spaying: This is a decision that every owner has to make himself/ herself. But that much can be said, it's never a guarantee that spaying will fix behavioral issues.

    It was strongly believed in the past and spaying was advocated by vets for several reasons. But that has changed due to current studies and changed scientific knowledge.

    Many vets actually no longer recommend spaying, if not necessary for any particular reason, e.g. health.

    Because like said, there's no guarantee that behavior will be fixed by it. Younger studies also revealed that spaying can actually bring more health disadvantages for the dog than formerly assumed. I am no expert on that topic. Just use Google and do your own research on the internet. Then make your own decision.

  • philsergeantphilsergeant Palm City, Florida, USA
    edited December 2015
    Djammy's so diplomatic.... which, I am afraid to say, is something people rarely expect from me.  I'd go back to the vet and, instead of punching him, (which would be my preference) let him watch this video.  If the dog is over-crated it will bring about all sorts of dysfunctions, not least of all over-humping. Humping should be a passing phase in all males but can be corrected with proper discipline:




    In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
  • Most of the dogs I see humping others are already fixed. If I were you, I wouldn't rely on neutering him to cut the hump.

    What kind of awful trainer tells a person to put a dog in a crate "all the time?" That's not training, that's prison. Being in a crate for any other reason than rest is likely to just make him more anxious and hyper and cause you more problems. I'm glad you've decided to give him more freedom.

    Honestly I think he's just being a young dog. They're going to misbehave and be wild, you just have to know when to say enough is enough!
  • philsergeantphilsergeant Palm City, Florida, USA
    Our Dawgies love their crates... They go in there, often both in one crate, to cuddle and sleep if we are busy doing stuff (or, Isabella, as soon as she hears the vac cleaner), but they are never locked in unless we are all out of the house,  just in case the pool girl cleans or the Fedex guy comes to the door, ~~ just in case.
    In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
  • Thank you everyone for your feedback.  The more I read your replies the more I disagree with a lot that our trainer has trained us, so to speak.  His exact words were "the more the dog is in the crate the sooner he will be able to be out of the crate"  ....a lot of good that has done.  I've been beating myself up for going against my instincts because I didn't feel like a lot of what he told us was conducive or seemed "right" but, I listened because I'm not a "professional"... What would you guys recommend as proper discipline when he is humping or biting...because he has been doing a lot of both.  The biting isn't really aggressive but he doesn't stop when I say no for the most part and if I 'Yelp" he doesn't give a rats ass.  I want to do everything that I can to help the behaviors stop. 
  • We had an unruly young pup in Stoeger. Pinning, prong collar and ignoring him after undesired behavior worked wonders.

    He's 2.5 years old now. He's still a Bullie and stubborn but when the prong goes on his best behavior goes on. We don't even have to pop the collar, he just knows we mean business and well mannered Stoeger makes an appearance.

    We still have problems with him interacting with other dogs due to his female human's nervousness while handling him around other dogs.

    All the advice in prior posts will help you and Sarge immensely if you stick with it and are consistent. The free advice on this site is a million times more valuable than what your "trainer" has suggested.
  • Hello all! I am happy to say that Sarge is no longer biting and has developed a wonderful brotherly relationship with my human son!!   New problem though  :-??  yesterday I had to leave for a couple of hours to bring my grandfather to therapy and I crated him, as I usually do when I leave... and he ripped apart/ate some of the bottom of the crate.  This is something he has never done before in the past.  I went and got a new bottom and a new nyla bone for him to occupy himself when in the crate, but I have noticed that when I crate him (during dinner, I always do) that he cries a lot now and carries on-which he never did in the past.  I was up with him all night last night vomiting from his crate bottom treat- although he seems fine today, he hasn't vomited, ate breakfast, went #2, and is energetic as ever.... I'm really scared that he may do this again and not be so lucky.  Any advice?? Thanks as always guys!!
    12734011_10153872261236635_8033956667873633251_n.jpg
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  • edited February 2016
    Really happy for you to hear that the biting/ nipping issues have ceased - not that I was not convinced they eventually would. ;)

    I don't know, if you are using a real crate or something else.

    image
    We have one of the largest available versions of these plastic kennels - which are originally made for transport - in use as a crate for Djamila. We also own a smaller one for the car. She loves both of them.


    image

    https://www.chewy.com/dog/petmate-sky-kennel-large/dp/101599?utm_source=google-product&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=hg&utm_content=Petmate&utm_term=&gclid=CJu34qm68soCFcdehgodlH8FOQ

    While enclosed in this, it should be a lot harder for a dog to find weak spots to chew on from the inside compared to the bottom of a dog crate.
    Of course, if your dog chews up things will depend on some more factors such as the material you put inside for comfort and padding, as well as the mental state of your dog (anxiety, boredom, stress).

    In addition to the advantage mentioned above these kennels also provide a really cozy refuge for the dog vs. crates, because the dog feels less exposed. It also limits the visual field of the dog. In some dogs with anxiety this can be helpful, in others it could have quite the opposite effect. Sadly that's something you will only know after a trial run.

    It probably goes without saying that it will also be helpful to try and find out the reasons why your dog seems to be so stressed out when crated. Sounds to me like he does not like being left alone. Is that a situation new to him?
  • I own the picture of the first crate that is posted with the metal and it is a large one, he can turn around and sit down without his head touching the top.  He ripped apart that plastic bottom that slides in and ate some of it too.  I am home most of the time, but have left him in his crate a lot when going out and have never had this issue.  I also was not gone for any longer than any other time... my guess is it was boredom because I have had him crated on and off throughout the day today and he is fine with his new bone.  I have decided though, that he will only get this bone while in his crate and not outside of it, so that it is something he may look forward to.  The other thing I was thinking was could he have been wanting to get out to try to mate with the female pug because he is 7 months now and "hormonal" ...I do not know if that happens, she is fixed- he is not. I almost bought one of the crates like you use because when I got him from the breeder, she had his mom in one... I guess I am going to have to just wait and see how this pans out!!  Thank you Sammy as always!I 
  • philsergeantphilsergeant Palm City, Florida, USA
    Yeah, my daughter's dog did the same to that plastic tray, and one of ours split, so I discovered they sell replacement trays (save buying a whole new crate) typically the chewing starts from a split... it's hard to get to the edges of the tray... but they can split them by scratching pounding on the center.  Our dogs love their crates and go in there all day.... But is sounds like Sargie Bargie has just decided he hates being left in there for any significant period .... I don't know if a chew bone is going to satisfy his "pissed-offed-ness"... Try putting him in there while you are still in view/ around, so he stops associating the crate with being "neglected"/ left alone.
    In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
  • edited February 2016
    We have our two kennels in use now for more than 15 years with no significant signs of wear. Both of them have "survived' one Bull Terrier life and are now in use with the next one. No repairs or replacements ever necessary. They also did a great job during our move overseas. Our last Bull Terrier Fancy crossed the Atlantic Ocean in an airplane in one of them - these kennels are real toughies, have really paid off.

    Yet, I've never tried the cage style crates, because I always liked the idea of my dog having kind of its own real doghouse in our house or apartment.

    When Djamila was young and pretty new in our household, she really got p***** the first time we left her alone enclosed in there for the time of a real quick stop at the grocery store. We had taken a lot of time to get her used to the kennel before while being around or only away for a few minutes - nonetheless, saying she was unhappy would be an understatement. :))
    We have cameras at home, so we could watch her rioting in that box so hard that she basically went through half of our living room with it.
    We rushed back home. When we arrived, she seemed to have cooled down already. Only the box had shifted a few yards. Yet no damages whatsoever. Can't help it, still makes me chuckle thinking about it ...
    I think she got really angry about being left alone. That one time remained the first and only time she has ever done that. Since then she has loved her retreat and has never ever shown any signs of being unhappy when being home alone.

    While the idea of making the crate more attractive to doggie with the Nylabone sounds good overall, I would be a little worried about Sargie chewing up and swallowing the Nylabone when alone and getting bored, since he has shown destructive tendencies already and also has proven to EAT what he chews up.
    But that's really hard to assess without knowing the dog and all the circumstances.
    One thing is for sure, with Bull Terriers owners often need to be creative.
  • I seriously had NO IDEA how insane this breed is- but like me, insane in a good way!!  :))  I have not left him all alone but, I have been putting him in the crate more through the day and so far, the bone has been amazing for him.  It is a different kind of nylabone...it's pretty amazing!! It is enormous and the ends are like HUGE knots, so I don't have the fear of him chewing through it- I think it would take days!!  && philsergeant, we got the replacement bottom and it did start with a small crack from him clawing the edge when he wanted to be noticed!! Also, there is a latch that clips it in- he figured out how to undo that and push the bottom out so months ago we bungied it LOL  He's a real a**hole at times, but boy do I love him!!
  • Oh by the way- venturing off for church this evening!! Fingers crossed I come home to peace and not chaos!!
  • philsergeantphilsergeant Palm City, Florida, USA
    edited February 2016
    Hard to find something, anything,  on this earth that makes, forces, commands that you love them as much as a Bullie does... (sad to say).... glad to say

    In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
  • Sooo after church on Saturday, we've an an emotionally charged handful of days.  We came home, Sarge did wonderfully and did not chew up a thing.  Sarge often sits with his feet on the floor and chest on who ever is on the couch and was doing so on my fiancees lap.  My son nearly walked over to show his father which button to press on the controller and Sarge snapped at him.  It looked as though he went for his face- and ended up getting his hand instead.  It was a small scrape but, still the mere fact that we are back to this after everything is alarming.  Also, as much as I love Sarge- if he is going to be a risk to my son, it is a risk that I can not take.  I'm torn in a million directions of thought with this whole situation.  The "snap" was totally out of no where and I know Sarge could really do some damage if he wants to and in an instant.  I don't know what to do.  Thinking of making a vet appointment, and talking to her and going from there 
  • philsergeantphilsergeant Palm City, Florida, USA
    This is not unusual, for him to be jealous or protective of the affections of someone close... How much time does your son spend with him one on one (how old is your son?, apparently not a baby if he is teaching dad technology).... Sargie needs to be taught that that is wrong, he can learn, it is NOT because he is a bull terrier, it's because he is as yet un-taught as to what is acceptable and what not.... If the dog was a Chihuahua it could well have been worse... or even a cat.. They all can be possessive... Only the cat would probably never learn.  Vets typically know doodoo regarding behaviour, especially EBT behaviour.
    In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
  • edited February 2016
    Sounds like a solid idea to seek more 1:1 help. He is still a puppy and EBT's tend to mild occasional nipping even when older when they get super excited. But the way you describe the situation, it does not sound like excitement is the trigger. Somehow it sounds more like jealousy or ranking issues.
    And at his age - how old is he now? I suppose at least 4 months? - and after all you have tried Sarge should know that going after your son for whatever reason is absolutely taboo.

    You are absolutely right to put the safety of your son first here.
    Yet, I still think, if there's nothing mentally wrong with Sarge, he may just be one of the harder nuts to crack, needing a little more firmness. The trainer may already have seen this threat and therefore advised the prolonged crating, which at first I did not understand. But it remains true that this is not a solution for Sarge to spend his life with, either. If nothing else helps immediately I would think about having Sarge wear a muzzle at all times he is around your kid for now. That's not training, but a simple safety measure, until you have found better solutions.
    In terms of better solutions I keep my fingers crossed for all of you. Sadly my resources for remote advice are exhausted.
  • My son is 7 and does not have any one on one time with Sarge because of Sarge's jealousy issues toward him.  There is always one of us adults there but he was giving my son LOTS and LOTS of love prior to this and even looking for him as soon as he woke up.  Sarge is just about 8 months old now and I have gone through many measures to stop this-training, prong collar, and lastly the shock collar which seemed to work very well for some time...I did get a muzzle and boy do I hate it, it is not easy to put on him and he looks so pathetic with it on, it's just so sad.  I'm hoping to get an appointment with the vet at the soonest, tuesday- we are moving on Saturday so everything is chaos right now.  Thanks as always for your responses...I really appreciate everything!!  I will let you know what comes of it! 
  • We moved.  Sarge did not take it well the first two days but, little by little I see he is becoming more comfortable and likes his new home.  We were all living with my mom and her pug, so now he is the *only* dog and has a lot more freedom!  I have been keeping him distanced from my son and spoken to my vet who recommended getting him fixed.  I know a lot of people may not agree with my decision, but I am going to have it done the first week of march.  We live in an area where EBTs are very rare but to my excitement... the condos we moved into- a woman about 4 doors down, owns a 9yr old male and it is her 3rd in life!!!  She also recommended getting Sarge fixed and said it helped with her male.  So my fingers are crossed!  Will keep in touch!! Ty
  • A lot of things have happened since I have posted on here. We had moments when Sarge would for no reason to our knowledge just start growling at my fiancee or son (we have a built in gate in our home that gives him the whole kitchen and dining room and has saved the day many times when he would flip. Around September, he bit my son on the stomach when he dropped a piece of paper on the floor and went to pick it up (drawing blood) and I called the vet and they recommended to train or euthanize. So we brought him to a new trainer who evaluated him and said he didn't think he was aggressive. (WHICH HE IS NOT 85% OF THE TIME) In fact, him, my son and fiancé had really developed a bond and there seemed to be no jealousy issues anymore at all!! Sarge did amazing at the trainer and showed no signs of aggression for some time. Then right before Thanksgiving time he full-on attacked my fiancé. Non-stop biting different areas of the body (he did not go to the hospital) but had at least 5 BAD puncture wounds- he got away by jumping the gate and right after Sarge acted as though nothing happened (wagging his tail and completely normal disposition). I immediately called the trainer and he recommended a new vet who has experience with dogs who may have aggressive behaviors. So we changed vets and the new vet put him on fluoxetine. Sarge seemed to be doing well on it for some time now... Fast forward to Saturday.. Every morning for very long time Sarge wakes up in my room and him and my son walk downstairs to the kitchen together. That is how we have started our day for some time. My son walked into our room like every morning and Sarge starts to attack him. I got him off of him and he was still going for him so I fought the dog, while I screamed for my son to lock himself in the bathroom. By the time I got the dog into his cage he was wagging his tail like he didn't even realize what had happened. He ripped my sons nostril and bruised his face with teeth marks when he attacked him and I took him to the hospital. Sarge is now on a 10 day quarantine (by law although he is up to date on all vaccinations they do this in NJ to view for rabies) in our home and I have my son staying at his grandmother's in the mean time.
    I have spoken to 3 separate rescues (Recycla-Bull, Blue Ridge and Big Apple) and have told them his history and they all said it is best to euthanize him because he is a danger & spoke to me about sudden rage which sounded like him. So, at this point it looks like Tuesday the 18th when his "quarantine" is up, I will have to do this. I would like to try to bring some type of positivity away from his life because most of the time this was not who he was! I took out the breeders papers and started looking more into them which sadly, I was not aware of the importance of this before. When I googled the address listed (which was not where I picked up Sarge) it was not even a real address. I believe that he is running a puppy mill and found ads online with litters for sale at the moment! I did call him more than once about Sarge but realized quickly that he was not going to help nor did he care. Sorry for such a LONG post but, I wanted to reach out to a community of bull terrier lovers, because despite what Sarge did to our son, he was and is a part of our family and we love him! This is the hardest thing that we have to do.
  • My heart goes out to you your son husband and sarge in this hard and difficult time
  • BulliesofNCBulliesofNC Richlands, NC
    That must have been a very traumatic experience for you and your family. I can only imagine the emotional stress this caused. You did the right thing. Sadly, (with all breeds) there are some which are born with bad genetics that carry temperament and aggression issues. There was nothing you did that caused this sort of aggressive behavior. This is NOT the normal character of a Bull Terrier. In all actuality the Bull Terrier is listed in AKC's top ten best dogs with kids year after year which is indicative of their good nature and loyalty. The sad part of your whole experience is that you may never trust a Bull Terrier again and due to Sarge's poor genetics you may have developed a false opinion about the breed. I would think this would be a normal factor for anyone too, especially seeing first hand the acts of aggression coming from a Bull Terrier you owned and raised.
    I am truly sorry you had to go through this ordeal with Sarge and although your mind is most likely bringing you back to the times in which Sarge displayed the loving and proper character of a well-natured Bull Terrier there's no question he has a screw loose which makes for a safety risk for your family and any other family. Sometimes it's best to eliminate the risk of serious bodily harm by euthanizing a dog which has been evaluated by a trainer and veterinarian and said to be a danger to people.
    - Steve Gogulski
    "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
    www.bulliesofnc.com
  • edited July 2017
    I've heard and read some things about "SOA" when I started researching after our last EBT girl Fancy suddenly at around the age of four started attacking my feet out of her sleep and then seemed to not remember anything once she woke up and became conscious. But it was never like the things you have described. I never really felt physically threatened by her. There was no injury involved. It was limited to some kind of a "phase" she went through. And soon enough the behavior vanished as it had appeared.

    So sad to hear that in your case the events developed so dramatically - for everyone involved. I really don't envy you for the hard decision you have to make now. But looking back at how long you have tried, it is comprehensible that your options are exhausted and that this is no state in which a normal family life is possible. It's just straight dangerous. I am glad that your son and your partner did not suffer really severe injury if I read that correctly. The injury that has happened and the trauma these events have caused will hopefully NOT haunt you for the rest of your life.
  • Thank you all for your support. I am exhausted in every way possible and realize this is the only decision after trying so many avenues (trainers, different vets and medications) and contacting so many people who are much more educated and have experience with the breed (bull terrier rescues & you guys). My heart is broken in a lot of ways- we got Sarge as a family pet for my son to grow up with and develop that "boy and his dog" lifelong friend (and I had always wanted a EBT) and now we are here faced with this. I want to thank you all for your help in his early stages of life and for responding now that my family is going through this. You have all been very helpful and I'm grateful and thankful for you all!
  • philsergeantphilsergeant Palm City, Florida, USA
    SargesMom.... I am so sorry that I have been very busy at work of recent and didn't see your post until today. Besides the fact that my (real) name is also Sarge, I can relate to this horribly unfortunate escapade. When I was a very young man (long ago) we had a Dalmatian (of all breeds) who was totally vicious, not toward any person, but to other dogs. So much so that he used to either scale the 7ft walls around our property or tunnel beneath them (no mean feat) to get to other neighborhood dogs. He came home at least once a week covered in blood and scars, which return was mostly followed up by neighbours bringing by their worse conditioned dogs, complaints and threats... sometimes guns. After a few months of this, medications etc. we had no alternative but to put him down. After all this time the memory of how traumatic that was has thankfully faded somewhat but never forgotten. May all of our collective horrors and stress be laden on the souls of the bastard "breeders" that have no concern for the wellbeing or future of their product ... except for the money part, obviously.
    In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
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