Question about pinning
Hello everyone. This discussion was inspired by the neighboring thread “pinning”. Yet, I have started a new topic, because this is less about some kind of problem and more a general question.
I have read a lot about pinning in this forum so far. The ones who know me, also know that I am not the biggest fan. My original intention, however, is not to discuss pros and cons. Although I am pretty sure, we will have some opinions on that.
I have read a lot about pinning in this forum so far. The ones who know me, also know that I am not the biggest fan. My original intention, however, is not to discuss pros and cons. Although I am pretty sure, we will have some opinions on that.
Actually, my perspective may even change with this discussion. We’ll see.
Right now I am most interested in getting a real “definition” or description of pinning.
I have tried to find something using the search. But there is so much coming up that I was not able to really find a clear answer.
Therefore I would really appreciate one of the pro’s here to take the time and describe the most important steps of pinning for me.
The reason I am asking is that lately I’ve come to doubt, IF I really know what pinning means and is about.
So far, pinning to me was equivalent with the “alpha roll”, suggested in the 70’s by the Monks of New Skete.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll
As the alpha roll involves a lot of intimidation, I have my problems liking this method. That’s no secret. Even the people who have once warmly recommended it, have later retracted that recommendation and asked people to be cautious with it.
Often when I read raving reviews from owners, who tried pinning on their own dogs, their description, however, sounds nothing like the original alpha roll to me.
The dogs are often just put on their side - not back - and held gently - no grip at the throat/ neck - held down just strong enough to prevent the dog from getting up and give it a chance to calm down.
That sounds like a completely different method to me!
I have my doubts, if this method can work particularly on aggressive dogs without owners getting hurt - especially because there’s obviously often no control over the dog’s head/ protection against biting.
Right now I am most interested in getting a real “definition” or description of pinning.
I have tried to find something using the search. But there is so much coming up that I was not able to really find a clear answer.
Therefore I would really appreciate one of the pro’s here to take the time and describe the most important steps of pinning for me.
The reason I am asking is that lately I’ve come to doubt, IF I really know what pinning means and is about.
So far, pinning to me was equivalent with the “alpha roll”, suggested in the 70’s by the Monks of New Skete.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll
As the alpha roll involves a lot of intimidation, I have my problems liking this method. That’s no secret. Even the people who have once warmly recommended it, have later retracted that recommendation and asked people to be cautious with it.
Often when I read raving reviews from owners, who tried pinning on their own dogs, their description, however, sounds nothing like the original alpha roll to me.
The dogs are often just put on their side - not back - and held gently - no grip at the throat/ neck - held down just strong enough to prevent the dog from getting up and give it a chance to calm down.
That sounds like a completely different method to me!
I have my doubts, if this method can work particularly on aggressive dogs without owners getting hurt - especially because there’s obviously often no control over the dog’s head/ protection against biting.
Yet, on the other hand, this sounds like a FAR more gentle way to me, for example to calm an overexcited puppy without intimidating it and maybe even a method I could like.
Thank you for your input and answers!
Thank you for your input and answers!
Comments
thank you so much for your input.
First of all, I hope I was able to make clear in my first post that I do not intend to judge any dog owner here or discuss, if he/ she is doing things right or wrong.
This is really just of personal interest to me. Mainly because I am still really confused:
Under the link I have posted above “pinning” and the “Alpha roll” are defined as the same thing.
However, I really see a huge difference between the absolut necessary CALMING for many EBT puppies and youngsters on the one hand - done by putting them on their side, restricting them for a moment, forcing them to calm and enforcing this with a stern command. The way you have described above.
OR on the other hand using a not only dominant but even threatening gesture by forcefully flipping the dog to its back, grabbing the throat and holding it down with some pressure and with this - allegedly - simulating the situation of serious fights between animals over life and death with the flipping over intended to kill the opponent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll#Effects
It may sound like sort of the same action, but the messages sent are entirely different in my mind. And if this is the difference between pinning and Alpha rolling OR if there are “only” a lot of facets so Alpha rolling/ pinning (because it’s actually both the very same), then this is something owners really need to now. That’s my opinion.
Because then it’s like the difference between whispering and shouting and the dog will go through completely different feelings when undergoing one or the other way of pinning. One end of this scale of feeling may just be pouting, while the other one is pure FEAR!
I read about a man applying the Alpha roll to his puppy, unfortunately and unintentionally strangling it to death in the course of the action.
Other owners have been bitten in the face when applying the Alpha roll to an infuriated and aggressive dog.
So, the main problem I see when pinning being recommended - I don’t exclude myself, I’ve also recommended it in the past - is a lack of information about how to do it right, which situation and which amount of force is appropriate.
I have come to the conclusion that this is clearly an advanced training method, because of the possible consequences, and therefore it should come with a manual OR only be used by experienced owners or trainers.
There are obviously hugely different stages and how much emotional pressure this method should put on the dog, clearly depends on the individual situation. It can start as calming and climax in the fear to die.
Owners need to be aware of the risks they are dealing with and the possible emotional consequences they can cause when using Alpha rolling.
For example, just rolling a growling, aggressive dog baring its teeth on its side and gently trying to hold it there can be very dangerous for the owner, especially if the dog’s head is not being controlled. The dog - feeling cornered - could choose to flee forward lunging at the owner’s face which is naturally close by then and easy to reach to cause serious injury.
IF using the Alpha roll on such an infuriated dog, the owner will probably need to go all the way, roll the dog on its back, holding the neck down forcefully (yet, without causing the dog to choke, of course!) and intentionally make the situation intimidating to the dog causing it to submit and stop the aggressive behavior.
On the other hand if a puppy is just constantly overexcited, nipping and lunging into the owner’s feet, which way is the best to end this?
Rolling this puppy on its back and grabbing the throat will clearly transport the message.
However, the question would remain: Is that kind of enforcement really appropriate to the given situation?
Or is it even able to cause adverse effects, such as future mistrust of the puppy in the owner, fear towards the owner or other emotional damage, which may even lead to the puppy BECOMING more aggressive?
Then again if this very same puppy gets corrected by - I will call it - the “gentle way” of pinning/ Alpha roll, that may quite be enough and appropriate to cause the desired effect, because that way does not involve intimidation (fear of death). It will help the puppy to calm and without fearing for its life and it will learn that the owner is the one making the rules AND setting the limits without excessive force.
We are talking about apples and oranges here, and I think there is a LOT of confusion, not only on my side. What do you think?
I myself only knew the very forceful version of the Alpha roll (pinning was equivalent to me) so far. And it was done by flipping dog on it’s back and grabbing the throat, combined with very calm, but sharp command and a stern facial expression.
Djamila was an extremely self-confident puppy and always quick to make clear what she wanted and what she didn’t like. Sometimes she even found some snapping necessary. We have been working on all of that and she has learned that there are other ways to go, mostly with positive reinforcement, trust exercises and simply getting to know each other better over time.
Yet, I myself have used the Alpha roll, but am happy to say only three times.
With no exception - I only used it when my teenage dog was trying to challenge me, wanting to clarify the question, who is the boss by not complying to give away toys, instead aggressively and threateningly growling at me and baring teeth.
We were able to clarify the roles pretty good that way. But I am aware that Alpha rolling a clearly aggressive dog is dangerous. And it almost broke my heart to watch her afterwards, completely shaken and confused, needing to process what just happened, although there was NO physical harm involved.
To me this showed that Alpha rolling indeed sends a very STRONG message to the dog and that is has to be used with absolute caution!
I would NEVER use that much of enforcement and emotional pressure just to correct my dog’s nipping during play. And I am pretty sure that most of the owners here would not, either.
Currently after thinking a lot about training and correction and watching my dog grow into such a considerate individual, trying to do things right, I am really wondering, if the very forceful end of this method is really necessary at all, or if there are other ways to resolve even such extreme situations differently and not having to use intimidation at all.
I find the softer (CALMING) version of this kind of correction so disproportionally much more educational and rewarding for both, owner and dog.
I am also convinced that CALMING is very necessary for many EBT puppies and youngsters. Many of them - mine is such an individual - tend to get overexcited and need some help to find their way out of it.
I have resumed our leash training these days, because THANK GOODNESS it finally starts to be less hot here in Florida.
Staying calm and calming the dog, for example, just taking a time out, having her sit and let her watch what’s going on around her, getting used to the environment helps a lot more.
It’s in many cases the same with other unwanted behaviors. That is the reason why during our dog training I always include calming exercises.
When Djamila gets too excited during play we also calm her by placing her on the side and just holding her until she calms. Today this quickly ends up in an affectionate round of cuddling.
I hope with this "book” I was able to explain my confusion and why I opened this discussion. I find it important to know, what people MEAN when they speak about “pinning” or “Alpha rolling”.
I have been fortunate that we have been able to virtually kiss our kids into submission with most of the teaching happening between two and four months. On the other hand, it can become a struggle for owners that have not realized that they need to start control early, and have an unruly, and now stronger dog (and more determined dog) to control at 6 months or a year. That can take some force, and, while you are applying much force, your nature is less able to conjure up much love.... (unless you're a strong saint!!!)
P.S. I had the unfortunate need to pin Isabella (at nearly 3 years) a couple of weeks ago... she had sat in glue or paint somewhere, heaven knows where, we don't have any and couldn't find any around the house .... When I saw it I thought little of it, as she was having her weekly bath later that day.. I thought it would just wash out. When we got to that I found her tail was un-washable, rock solid like a paintbrush having been left full of paint for a month.
Long story short we had a hell of a time getting the "epoxy" off... it turned very infected, broke two electric razors trying to cut off her hair .... But she was in agony, and we had to change her dressing once a day and she tried to bite my face each time although I was smothering her face with kisses and tears... Poor kid... anyway, it's over now and all healed with hair growing back... But holding down a 75lb bullie with love when they are writhing in pain is absolutely no fun, believe me... it went on for a week.
The interesting part was that her AND Marco were so traumatized by the need for any "control", that they were cuddling and cowering after each dressing change for about 2 hours.... needing reassurance.
I just thought I'd throw this other dimension in here as a chaser.
so sorry to hear about all of those problems and glad for you guys at the same time to hear that the problems are already on the way to get better. Such extreme situations can affect and confuse everyone in the house, I can imagine that.
When I corrected Djamila with the Alpha roll, she was still a puppy. She was not stronger than I am, but she was pretty straight forward and aggressive in those situtions. I believe me using this method was mostly sparked by a strong gut wish to stay on top of any aggression or insubordination of my dog. Because I know the two worst cases that can happen in a dog-owner relationship are either a dog being afraid of its owner or vice versa - the owner being afraid of his dog.
I have done a lot of training with Djamila basically from day one she came to us in order to get her used to being handled, to prevent food aggression or other possessive behaviors and many more things.
It kind of caught me by surprise then, when all of a sudden she went Mr. Hyde one day over a toy she liked a lot when I tried to take it away, after everything had worked like a charm before.
Although solely applied as an educational step without emotions, the pinning almost happened like an automatic instinct reaction on my side.
Yet, I could not help but pondering afterwards, if I could have resolved the situation differently.
I am happy that it was not able to ruin the relationship, Djamila and I had developed so far. After we went through this three times in a row, Djamila obviously had no more interest in challenging my intentions. I on the other hand did not have any intention to keep triggering this situation and her aggression. For a while therefore, I was thinking about just taking away those beloved toys for good and switching to other less interesting things for her to have or even skip toys all together.
I really did not want to get into another toy situation where I felt the urge to correct her by pinning anytime soon, because the entire thing just made me feel so incredibly uneasy towards my dog - and I did not want to spark any more aggression on her side her on disagreements over toys.
Then again I thought to myself: Wait! She loves those balls SO much.
I really want her to have them.
This is not a one-way street. There’s GOT TO BE ANOTHER WAY!
So, I went back to square one with her and her favorite toy. I wanted her to have it and I wanted her to learn that giving it away is not necessarily a loss for her and that there is just no need to become aggressive.
Correcting possessiveness is one of the very basic concerns of mine, because I think in situations when she may accidentally have grabbed anything that can be dangerous to her, it can be vital to be able to get her to give it away quickly.
So, with a lot of patience and positive reinforcement we now got to the point where she brings her toys, gives them away - sometimes still a little hesitant - and where no real fights over this entire thing are necessary or desired on both sides.
Making clear that I don’t tolerate her going Mr. Hyde on me seemed to have set the rules straight - I guess, I have to be honest to myself and give pinning that credit - and then giving her a chance of dealing with her possessiveness may have been the best path for us after all.
Yet, until I read your story today, philsergeant, I honestly wished I would never again feel myself forced to use a serious Alpha roll on my dog again.
Now I see there can be extreme situations, also in an adult dog’s life, and sometimes being intimidating can even be THE valid means when trying save a dog’s health. That’s a fair point. Knowing how much you love your dogs, I am really sorry to hear that you had to get to that point and can absolutely feel how hard it must have been for you. I also have to admit that in this situation, I would probably have made the same decisions - for the sake of my dog.
This seems to be one of those extreme situations that just do not leave a lot of other choices.
So, I guess Alpha rolling and pinning really ARE the same thing after all, only the method really seems to have facets and certain circumstances seem to make even the toughest version the appropriate measure sometimes.
There's something about seeing the new puppy so confident and feisty that I'd always like him to have that level of confidence and swagger, but, and it's a very big but, if a dog feels like he doesn't have to answer to its owner, then that's going to be one heck of a nightmare for its entire adult life. I repeat to myself that I am the alpha, and I believe it is conveyed to them. It doesn't take a heavy hand, it just takes consistency of what is okay and what isn't. I'm praising almost all of the time.