My dog doesn't trust me/likes me after a beat. How to regain the relationship?

luigisayshello

So, last week my guy did me one that leaved me completely mad, I'm a calm dude, I always was, but this get me completely off-line, it was wrong, but it felt the right thing to do at the time. Long story short, I asked a guy that was walking with his dog (a chilled dog) if they could meet, the guy was nice, I walk towards them with my dog, as usual and mine after some seconds goes for the kill (he growled at the neck, I saw what would happen and I just waited for an opportunity to take him out). This was the first time that he did this, he had no reasons, I can come up with a bunch of explanations to why it happen, but it's useless, I take him out of there, gave him a slap, he growled at me (first time too) and I loose it, I could bring myself a bit down after thinking "if you bite me I will kill you", so it never passed to a too much aggressive beat. I know what I did is f***ed up (first time I did something like this), but at least it looks like it worked he meet the dog again and he didn't do shit, even though it apparently worked, I don't want to do it again.

My main objective now is to regain the trust that both of us had, I know that it could happen that we will not be like before, but from what I've seen I think it's possible, so I will try it anyway. What do you recommend for us to bond again? He doesn't want to play with me, he never played more than 5 minutes before, now he plays even less, even "reviving" the toy. Obedience training with treats could work... Anymore ideas?

philsergeant

From time to time, when a Bullie is "well behaved" and doesn't need frequent reminding as to who is boss, it will creep into his mind that HE is perhaps the boss... And you might get the type of behaviour that you experienced....  But you reminded him, (although you were over -zealous), and now he knows again.   I believe, the reason it is upsetting you so much, is that you were the one more out of control than he was... and you are finding it hard to get behind you.  You have to push yourself never to get mad, no matter how bad the situation is, especially if you even had even mild thoughts of "killing him"... He will get over it and perhaps you can use more frequent (once a week), gentler reasons and methods to calmly let him remember who is boss.  He will get over being mad at you, but not until you do the same.

LokiLostCoast

Loki has definitely been mad at me after a smack because he was being aggressive but he got over it quickly. I don't feel good about having to physically correct my dog but bull terriers I can definitely say need a strong hand, I'm not saying beat them but you do have to remind them who is boss sometimes. I don't tolerate aggressiveness from my dogs it's not ok. Loki lunged at me once while I was feeding him a pork foot, he didn't make contact but shocked I rolled him on his side and smacked his butt and yelled NO! After that I hand fed him for a month. He only got to eat food from my hands and now he's so good about not being food aggressive that the new pup Indica can eat out of the same bowl as him and he doesn't care. I have noticed him get a bit testy with her a few times over a hoof but nothing extreme. If you have a dog that goes after others you should find someone that you can walk your dogs with. Go on long walks together have them walk as close as possible. It will help. If you can find a few people with dogs that yours reacts poorly to ask if they will walk with you. Over time it seems to help.

luigisayshello

From time to time, when a Bullie is "well behaved" and doesn't need frequent reminding as to who is boss, it will creep into his mind that HE is perhaps the boss... And you might get the type of behaviour that you experienced....  But you reminded him, (although you were over -zealous), and now he knows again.   I believe, the reason it is upsetting you so much, is that you were the one more out of control than he was... and you are finding it hard to get behind you.  You have to push yourself never to get mad, no matter how bad the situation is, especially if you even had even mild thoughts of "killing him"... He will get over it and perhaps you can use more frequent (once a week), gentler reasons and methods to calmly let him remember who is boss.  He will get over being mad at you, but not until you do the same.

You are maybe right, I know he is not a saint but what I know the most is that he isn't that devil, he is actually a great dog, he is submissive enough, nice towards other dogs and people, obeys fairly good, is not a malinois but knows enough to let not only me enjoy our walks, but to not get himself into trouble, but the thing that boiled me was that I never expected him to handle a situation like this with that type of agression. I already had experienced him not liking a dog, but when that happens he either goes back and barks (this for me is showing me confusion on the other dog intentions), avoids him, or at most he picks a bit on him to see what's he is really about. This is not a great behaviour but it's controllable, it's more liveable and easy to correct and turn the situation into a good one, this time he wanted to kill the dog, plain and simple, without more than 1 second of notice. I know what was done wrong, but it doesn't justifies the attitude.

As for the now, after I wrote this, I leaved my house with a bag full of treats and I just played with him and gave him a long and apparently fun obedience session (he enjoys), I run a bit with him (this is another thing that annoys me, he rarely or never wants to run with me, all the dogs that play with him, follow me everywhere, but this little fucker never wants to run with me, I can only run short bursts with him (today I think he wanted to poop, he doesn't play before all of his shit and piss are out of him lol)), at the house I did a bit more obedience training, but now with petting as a reward, gave him a massage in the end and he appears more connected and wanting to engage with me. But I have his walking on the leash corrected and put him a bit more time on the leash, just to break his routine. 

What I don't know is how will I stimulate him next, maybe I will try that thing of the box, do a bit of nose work (hide treats and make him search, or just throw them, he likes it). The problem is that this guy only responds well to food.

P.S. If he full attacks me and I find that there is no reason whatsoever for him to do it (I'm an assertive person most of the time, I don't mind being wrong) he will not see the day after. But he won't, that I'm sure.

exiled

It's so unpredictable how dogs will respond, even the most predictable dogs.  Dogs seem to have almost invisible communications that signal aggression, and while things seem normal and fine, suddenly it's a brawl.  There must have been a trigger that wasn't obvious if he's normally fine around other dogs. 

luigisayshello

I saw it, but I didn't ever see it coming, if this makes sense. There were triggers, but again I didn't saw one that justified so much violence. 

Quick update, the fucker is now in better terms with me, but he has a bad habit, when he is all happy-go-lucky, he forgets everything that he can't do. I had to swallow one 1 hour ago, after playing 2 hours, obedience training, playing with his friends, running a couple of miles with me, but some time before we came to home I was at a park playing with him (he was in bully run mode, p.s. what are the triggers for your ebts to start their bully runs? Mine is basically approach him like a Setter when he stops to a bird and he will go nuts) and he picked a melon peel that was on the grass, I literally ordered him to put out (he usually follows through this command every time, but now he just swallowed with the fear mixed with "I don't give a fuck" I was about to give him a slap, but everything was going so nice that I ended up reprehending him, at the house I turn the table, I splashed his dinner over the floor, and not only I trained him to leave, to eat on command, to stop but to put it out of his mouth. First he was scared, then I added some pieces of bacon and he followed through very nicely. 

Next time, I probably will do the cesar millan touch, it works(ed) nicely with him as it does the shhtt.

luigisayshello

Loki has definitely been mad at me after a smack because he was being aggressive but he got over it quickly. I don't feel good about having to physically correct my dog but bull terriers I can definitely say need a strong hand, I'm not saying beat them but you do have to remind them who is boss sometimes. I don't tolerate aggressiveness from my dogs it's not ok. Loki lunged at me once while I was feeding him a pork foot, he didn't make contact but shocked I rolled him on his side and smacked his butt and yelled NO! After that I hand fed him for a month. He only got to eat food from my hands and now he's so good about not being food aggressive that the new pup Indica can eat out of the same bowl as him and he doesn't care. I have noticed him get a bit testy with her a few times over a hoof but nothing extreme. If you have a dog that goes after others you should find someone that you can walk your dogs with. Go on long walks together have them walk as close as possible. It will help. If you can find a few people with dogs that yours reacts poorly to ask if they will walk with you. Over time it seems to help.

Mine passed the same thing, he just didn't eat that meal and next day I hand feed him too and I pushed every button possible to make sure it's the last time I hear something like that. 

My guy doesn't go after no dog (even his friend dogs), even if he does, I just tell him to stop (I use a sound like the one used for horses) and he just stands there, he only approaches if the other dog approaches too and he is respectable of spaces. This case that caused my eruption, was me trying to get him a new friend (that I think that he already had meet). 

chooba

Wow
Just wow

There is a difference in instilling fear and instilling soul deap respect.
But I'm sure having a temper tantrum and throwing his food all over the floor did the trick and he learned his lesson.
Your dog is picking up on your way of dealing, a calm dude that flips out. Sound familiar ?
Your dog will snap again, I guarantee it

Gonna stop now before I get banned or better yet ppo'd

philsergeant

@chooba. I'm with you. Biting my lip.

Seon

Yep, you got to tone it down along with your descriptive
language.  My grade school granddaughter read this forum and I'm sure along with other kids [-X.

exiled

Have you tried positive reinforcement with him?  I know BTs are hard-headed, smart dogs, but they are so incredibly sensitive, too.  You pretty much have to deal with them like you would your mate or a child.  It works to praise them generously and gently pet them or give them a tiny training treat every single time they do something you want them to do.  If you ask them to come and they turn and take a step towards you, time to start bending down and using an exaggerated happy voice of how good they are.  You'll see the tail wagging and they will come to you quicker.

How about starting with a totally new start.  If your pup is still awake and he's where he's supposed to be, gently pet him and tell him what a good boy he's being and both of you go to sleep.  Wake up and take it easy and gently.  Every single thing he does, no matter how much you think he should do those things automatically, praise him.  After a week, let me know how that works.  I think you'll be surprised.

Pet stores, even the big chain ones have treats that they call training treats that are little tid bits that will help.  As you're trying the positive reinforcements, limit anything that is a known trigger.  Get reconnected to your BT before you go out and meet other dogs.  Try to focus on a gentler, kinder, and happier relationship.

philsergeant

I have decided to ban "Luigisayshello" from this Forum. We all know that it is difficult at times bringing up any dog, and Bullies are not the easiest, nor are they the worst breed to train and control. We also realize that at times, in the spur of the moment, we say things that we don't really mean. Luigi talked about killing his dog because it lunged at him. Killing a dog that you have brought up since a puppy isn't an option. (If you live in the US recently you'll agree that "Dog's lives matter". )  Usually a silly thought about "killing your dog" could possibly be overlooked. But, if a day later you confirm that; if your dog ever lunged at you again, you would definitely kill it, is not the type of belief system we aspire to here. Also, as mentioned by Seon, these are not the type of values we want expressed to our kids and grand kids, who read this forum to learn as well. We do not take banning contributors here lightly, but I believe that showing obvious disregard for a dog's life is one type of contribution we can well do without.
I hope everyone understands that this is in the broader interests of this Bullie-Loving site.
Luigisaysgoodbye

exiled

Fully understand, and agree with your decision. 

dolsen

This is really interesting. I have had my 6 year old bullie since she was a pup and she taught me a lot about myself and my relationships in  my home .Funny enough the breeder told me... " If you tell her no , and she doesn't listen you make her listen and you let her know who is boss" ..    ( i will say i am certain i had the most dominant one of the litter) .so I took this to heart  and sure enough i did that ........... Here is what happened and here is what i learned.:  English bullies are HUGELY  sensitve breed- they pick up on every little simple thing you are feeling . They are a bull breed- if you go at them like a bull they will respond like a bull. SOmtimes just taking a calm, firm  casual approach  will work much much better.  One thing i wish i knew when i got her  was that puppies at 10 weeks go through a very big " fear" stage ,..... training a bullie with a " you better listen to me , pin you when you are naughty" attitude can completely mess up your dog and push them into a horrible state.  i.e fear turns to aggression.  They are so much smarter than people give them credit for.  They will want to work for you you just need to give them a reason too- .  Ours beceame hugely territorial, looking for fights with my husband , lunging at him and she has bitten him a few times.  We did tons of training with  her and honestly thought we would have to put her down and our trainer aggreed.  We couldn't do it , and it truly made us relook at our relationship , our methods and how we responded to her. We now have the best dog - .  It used to be correction after correction and telling her to get out the kitchen ( she was very territorial around the food) - she would never listen  . Now we can just say " out you go ,  on your bed  Norton" ( like a no biggies out you go ,, sort of response") and she does , she listens  Where as before  we would FIRMLY snap our fingers and say " on your bed" ( because it was the 30th time we had asked her) and she would respond with  a bull  chest and growling and not moving.) . Sometimes  just thinking outside the box with this breed works.    And  look at your environment - relationships etc.  They  are very smart , very coniving , love to be trained if you enjoy  training them.     One thing to watch for as well is ( they are not always growling at you , they grumble when they talk )  watch their body language and tension in there body , that will tell you right there.  .  And their eyes........ they don't see at the best angle so if you accidently get bitten when giving them a treat.......... that is not always them being agressive . Never hold the treat above them and tell them to be gentle... because they cant . Hold it underneath their mouth . and they are as gentle as can be.

philsergeant

Welcome here and thank you for your insightful input. There is a lot of truth in a lot of what you say. The thing I am not in tune with you on is that you feel that pinning does not work ( and can cause a dog to be aggressive?) ... It is very, as you say, very important that while disciplining in any way, that you are never mad or angry, even in the slightest... That has to be done with love. We have always done this with love and never mad, and we have never experienced an aggressive, even in the slightest , Bullie. All bullies are different and I am very glad that you have achieved a passive Bullie , especially after he was "angry" at one stage, that's quite something!

exiled

Positive reinforcement does work, and so does pinning when handled correctly.  It's funny how sometimes people will listen closer if someone is whispering versus shouting.  That's similar with positive reinforcement.  They won't shut down or go off into a sad place, but instead, perk up and think, wow, my mom or dad is so happy.  They want desperately to please us.  That being said, you hit the nail on the head with them being like bulls.  We have a new puppy, and it's shocking how when he's corrected about biting with those sharp teeth, he goes into an attacking frenzy with growling and comes back full force like a bull.  He has an umbilical hernia, so I'm avoiding pinning him, but I have on only two occasions gently held him in place on his side in a way to calm him.  I could visibly see the moment he took a deep breath and began to chill.  He's great about staying close and when I stop walking, he'll sit right on my foot.  I reach down and pet him and talk sweetly and softly to him, and make sure that is what most of our time is like. 

My first BT, I didn't know about pinning or how critical it is to make it known that we are the alphas.  It is top of the list.  I don't give treats as rewards, I give happy words while I pet them adoringly.  So far, we are off to a fantastic start.  Pinning achieves two things in one:  it makes the alpha order known and it calms them to make the most of positive reinforcement.  I wish sure do wish I had known about that when we got our first BT.