Problems with Bathing my boy

abau004

Problems when bathing my Bullie<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

Since Jinx was a puppy I could easily take him and clean his face and body with a wet cloth and after that I would brush him off…since abt two months ago he started showing aggression when I wanted to clean his face or even his back …he simply doesn’t like it and growls …..when I react to that he is all sorry sorry but when I try again I can see his lips going up and he will snap if I continue… 

I took him yesterday and used the hose to spray him down as he just loved playing with the water and between this I would grab him firmly and quickly wipe his face….couldn’t brush him down as he looked irritated again and I don’t want to push him too far.

 My question is why would he have had such a change in behavior …and no he was not hurt or anything like that …it’s since he turned 1 year his been like this…do I just accept and he stays dirty,,,use a muzzle…any advice please….    

bigbear1tracey

Hi @abau004 sorry to hear of this problem I don't actually know what to advise as never come across a sudden change in this way before but I'm. Sure someone can give u the advise or reason on here I hope it' can be resolved for u and jinx .

BulliesofNC

Some Bull Terriers, along with other breeds, simply don't enjoy water or someone messing with their face. Your Bull Terrier obviously doesn't enjoy anything to do with water and every time he experiences someone trying to force it on him he's reacting in a manner that he realizes works well - aggression. He may not want to snap at you or do any harm at all. However, if he figures out that aggression can be used as a tool in order to get his way he'll continue to use not just during times where water is involved but in times where he wants to get away with something.

The key is to address this problem as soon as you see it. Any form of aggression would lead to the dog being pinned right away if it were my dog. I would not allow for a second the thought to enter his head that his act of aggression halted what I was doing or wanted to do. He should not be allowed to get his way based on aggression.

In the event he is now in a stage where his aggression can lead to a snap and you fear that pinning him might be too risky what I suggest you do is find yourself a muzzle and prior to him even knowing what your intentions are just put the muzzle on him while he's in a good mood. Once the muzzle is on give him a nice long bath and scrub him good. In the event you hear him snarl at you instantly yell "NO!" and utilize the Pin Method so he quickly learns who the alpha is and a clear message is sent to him that aggression will not be tolerated.

After a few bathing with a muzzle on he should realize that the water isn't really a bad thing and if you reward him when your done he might actually start looking forward to a bath.

Give it a try. With a muzzle on him you shouldn't have anything to worry about which will prevent you from building up fear and anxiety which he can detect and react from.

abau004

Thanks for that I will definitely try tat approach. As mentioned he loves playing with the hose but when you want to rub or wash him he does this. Pinning him is no problem....its almost as if he doesnt like the cuddling but yet when I dare sit down on a chair his all over me like a little lap dog..

philsergeant

I was going to answer this morning before i had to drive to Orlando for a conference but didn't have time... So I am glad Steve hit the nail on the head.  ANY, ANY, sign of non-compliance must be nipped in the bud in a second.... If he thinks he has found any way of getting YOU to do what HE wants (or doesn't want), it's curtains.  He MUST know you are boss and if you want to shove the hose up his bum and water the plants through his nose (kidding totally of course), then he must accept it.  In his heart he knows you would never ask him to do anything that didn't reflect your love of him.... But he must know who is boss, always.

abau004

I just couldn't help laughing at your last comment......I can picture it now......I really appreciate the advice.... Will attack him this week-end..

Djammy

Guys, I know I am the softie in this round - I can bear it.

While I agree with all of you due to the aggressive behavior in immediate need of being addressed and corrected.

I just want to point out that IMO there is something else going on here: After all I know dogs usually do not just change their minds for no reason. Most of the time they do have valid reasons for their reactions, especially when they start to react differently than before.

Although I am admittedly not a huge fan of the pinning method, even I have already used it - successfully -  to correct aggressive behavior in the past. But I only use it in situations I am absolutely sure that this way of intimidating correction does not force my dog into unnecessarily having to endure pain or fear.

Such a situation could be, if she growled at me, because she does not want me to take her toy away. That would just be a disrespectful try to get her way - no pain, no fear involved.

In this case - as the dog tolerated water and rubbing in the past - there may be fear or even pain involved. Who knows. Something may have changed in the meantime or the dog never liked it in the first place and just did not show it as clearly until now.

Aside from giving my dog to understand that I do not accept aggression towards me, I’d still try to figure out what suddenly upsets him so much about the bathing.

While the dog absolutely needs to know who’s boss, he also needs to develop the trust that everything I am doing to him is for his own good.

As I can’t just explain that to him, he needs to learn it through experience. And I guess he will be grateful in the long run when he realizes that despite being the boss you do consider his needs and fears and try to make things more comfortable for him, especially when he’s experiencing fear or pain.

There’s a ton of possible reasons and a ton that could be tried. Positive reinforcement (praising and rewarding wanted behavior) - just as Steve suggested - is a great idea to work on that.

I’d also try different bathing times, water temperatures, separate times for face cleaning and body cleaning, switching cloth and brush maybe to just water and towel and overall just try to make bathing a positive experience for the dog (treats, praise, maybe dinner right after bathing etc.).

Instead of having it go to the point when aggression starts, maybe it’s an idea to slow down a little, keep bathing sessions to a bare minimum for now and as short as possible and move forward from there. Maybe there’s a chance to figure out what exactly bothers him and avoid getting him to the point of showing aggression in the first place without completely having to skip the bathing.

It may take a few weeks, but I am really sure it can make a difference.

I’ve had a problem with Djamila and her grooming - a common problem among dogs. While she would not really attack ME, in the beginning she’d still become really upset, growl a little, bare her teeth and attack the nail clipper, so I was unable to cut her claws.

It was and is pretty obvious that she really does not like that thing and is afraid it might hurt her.

We’ve been working on that issue together over a few months without any pinning involved, only with positive reinforcement. I know it’s a softie-way, but for me and Djamila it worked.

I don’t expect everyone to agree to or even love MY ways.

Still want to point out that the problem your dog has may be more than just a mood swing.

I’m proud of my dog with her progress, because despite her being a girl, she usually has a true bullhead and is very determined when is comes to "telling" about things she does not want.

She still has learned to accept the nail clipper to a certain point. Even today she is not absolutely relaxed around it and still now and then stops that thing. Then I just finish for that day and resume it the next day. We have found our way to handle this together without getting our horns locked about who’s boss.

grrr...struggling with the formatting when I copy&paste from my text editor. I give up now

philsergeant

I guess it's just a girl/ guy thing... Sorry it's not a chauvinist thing... Heaven knows I love ladies that are strong willed (Married to one for 45 years), but I guess I have to go back and read Genesis for the 5000th time.  The main thing, in my (small) mind, is that you have to control them with extreme love, because if you want the love to pervade you have to dominate them with love, not with aggression or strength ... I think, if we go back to the pure animal instinct, the head of the pack had to love his pack with extreme emotion, to go through the struggles and mis-comprehensions associated with dominating them to do the right thing for their own good... to make harmony dominate.  All I know is that for 40 years I have loved Bullies (more than humans if I need be honest) and they are never cowering or shy, they are confident and happy, and I can grab them, throw them to the ground on their backs and french kiss them while their tails wag and they never object.

Djammy

@philsergeant,

I’d never even think about calling you a chauvinist! It’s clear that your dogs love you and you love your dogs. The same goes for Steve. I deeply respect both of you guys and your ways and more than once have found valuable advice in what you’ve said here!

Honestly I’ve been thinking for a while about really posting in this discussion and share my opinion. But eventually I just decided to throw in another perspective. I am not saying that I think what you are doing/ advising is wrong.

I just try to point out that there are different problems and maybe several possible approaches here.

Besides, our opinion about aggression management is not so different after all.

Me saying that I am not a huge fan of the pin method does not mean I don’t approve of it. I am only not comfortable with doing it.

And I STILL have used it in the past! It is indeed a very basic and clear way of communication and does not involve any pain for the dog other than having his feelings hurt maybe.

I have actually only jumped into this discussion, because of the aspect that a previously former acceptance has suddenly switched to aggression.

Unless it’s not “just” a defiance/ dominance issue, which can happen especially with adolescent males, there may be other valid reasons. Something must have changed either in the dog or the procedure.

All I am saying is that aggression of a dog towards owners may as well have other triggers than defiance/ dominance, such as fear or pain.

To control defiance/ dominance pinning may be just THE right way to set the rules straight, if the owner is confident in doing so.

But with pain, it may potentially add even more stress for the dog - or worse: trigger more aggression - because in that particular situation the dog would basically be forced to continue enduring the pain (or fear) without even being allowed to show it.

That is probably no owner’s intention. So IMO the best way to get around this particular problem would be to look for the reasons underneath as well, and try to resolve the situation that triggers the aggression.

I guess in the end people reading this will choose their own way to deal with such things, because also people are different and comfortable with different approaches. And their solution could very well be a mix of all of our opinions, because there's not only one right or wrong opinion here.

BulliesofNC

No matter what, the positive reinforcement method of training always sounds best on paper. Some may also have great success with it with their Bull Terrier and swear by it. I've met many who claim you should never try and intimidate your dog or show them any form of dominance or aggression from yourself. Their method of discipline is basically like grounding a young child by telling them they were bad and taking away a toy they enjoy for a couple days. Don't get me wrong their might be some children that will adjust accordingly to this type of discipline but more often than not you simply develop a spoiled kid who quickly learns the consequences of their negative behavior and weak enough where they don't feel the need to change.

Many stubborn Bull Terriers won't be fazed with positive reinforcement and a young energetic Bull Terrier (especially males) could care less about positive reinforcement. They just want things their way.

I don't think there was any traumatic experience that caused a sudden phobia that was so intense that the Bull Terrier feels the need to show aggression every time he is bathed. This sounds like a common dominance reaction to something he simply doesn't want to take part in. Others have experienced this same reaction by just petting their Bull Terrier while it is relaxed or sleeping. It's not a fear thing but an obvious dominance issue that needs to be corrected and often this type of correction requires strict and stern methods especially for a strong willed and stubborn Bull Terrier.

Djammy

I can literally hear you thinking: “She’s probably a Montessori fan”, Steve .

Like I said, I’m the softie in this round, and I can bear it.

I don’t deny that I have only TWO BT case studies in my quiver, both girls.

You on the other hand are a successful breeder with generations of Bull Terriers, both male and female. Also Philsergeant seems to have a long Bull Terrier history.

I am not questioning your experience and I am not going to argue about right or wrong with you guys here.

I think this is another thread that has again developed into an interesting exchange of opinions, helping future readers - and probably also the initiator of this discussion - with their problems, whatever their decisions will be.

It’s true: As a “Montessory” Bull Terrier mom I will clearly have to live with the consequences of spoiling my dog with positive reinforcement.

And everyone trying to follow my suggestions will also have to learn that especially with a Bull Terrier positive reinforcement hardly ever works as the ONE AND ONLY method in any given situation.

But I wasn’t advocating that in the first place.

I’m ready for the consequences and for adjusting my dog with love AND assertiveness, just like you guys do, only a little differently here and there.

For me personally not only with dogs but in many situations in life the solution to many problems is not as simple as “one way or the other”.

Life often is more about finding the way in-between that fits yourself or your individual situation best at a given time. And when it comes to causes, I have learned that there often is more lying underneath than visible at first glance.

Anyway, we are all clearly successful and confident with the ways we consider best for handling our dogs, although they may be different.

I like the possibility of comparing different approaches here. No better place for that when it comes to Bull Terriers.

I meant it when I said that I have found really great advice in your and philsergeant’s words in the past, Steve, and I am looking forward to do so in the future.

philsergeant

@Djammy ... Oh! no! there are definitely two sides and many opinions and I agree there is surely not only one solution and, just like humans, there are multiple sets of permutations of birth, circumstance, upbringing, environment that would bring about and require different approaches and I respect you for yours. I never meant to imply that there was only one way, there can't be... But I can only stress what has worked for me and hope that others will expound on what works for them, and the reader/ try'er can find out what works for them by experimenting with various versions.  Also, regarding "aggressive" controlling of a dog, I must go back and be sure that everywhere I have mentioned dog control I have been sure to promote LOVING domination with absolutely no anger involved.

Djammy

Absolutely agree to that! Disciplining should never be used as an outlet for negative emotions.

Be assured, I would never think that your way of correction is motivated by anything else but tons of love for your dogs.

BulliesofNC

There are many ways to train dogs. There's no question of that. Some ways may take longer and be less dramatic in the eyes of some. Regardless, what type of training is conducted as long as the end result is positive in regard to the change needed and the dog in training learns in a manner where he or she gains respect and love for the owner it's all good.

@Djammy - Please don't think I was implying your way was wrong. However, based on the experiences I have with some hard headed Bullies I know that there is often a need for a more disciplined approach to the training in order to receive results in under one or two years. Truth is, many adoloescent Bull Terriers act up in some way or another and almost all of them grow out it at some point within their maturity. Owners might even commend themselves after 2 years go by and their bad habit goes away with little to no disciple. While others are happy to note the behavior gone in a few weeks while the Bullie is still in their adolescent stage.

Another thing to note is the fact that each individual dog has their own personality and character and training often requires different approaches with each dog. As an example, even if I were to yell "NO" to Deuce when she was young she would instantly stop whatever she was doing, put her head down, and probably cry for days. Now if I were to yell at Sooner or Rocky when they were young they would most likely wag their tail and run over to me thinking I wanted to play and jump up at me.

What works good for one Bullie might not work well for another which is why this Forum is great because people can get multiple opinions for different people.   :-bd

Djammy

My husband has a history of owning dogs that reaches back much further than my own experience of less than 20 years.

His experience - much of it rather traditional - is also very beneficial for me.

From him I also know about the adolescence issues that can occur in young males.

He once owned a Staffordshire Terrier - a heart of a dog - but a real rascal. One night when the dog was still young, my husband found himself waking up in his bed with the dog standing on his chest, lowering his head, baring teeth and growling at him.

The dog had just decided that now is the right time to decide who of the two is the Alpha in the house.

Hubby, still half in his sleep dashed up and used the pin method like a reflex without even knowing there’s a term for that.

He also was the first one telling me about the “the switch” you mentioned in BT’s around the age of three. He described it as the moment they commit to you 100%. Everything before is testing, daring you, locking horns …

With Fancy that “switch” was mainly about the unconditional commitment, as she was anything but hard headed or up for mischief even when younger.
Your stories about your dog Deuce often remind me a lot of Fancy! Love her for that even though I've never met Deuce.

Former experience plays a huge role in the decisions we make, no doubt about that.

That is why I have stopped thinking that what I believe to be true today will undoubtedly be valid for me tomorrow.

I am definitely a little sensitive with “doggie discomfort”, because of former experience that showed me how stressed-out they can get.

One time Fancy got so terrified and upset from nail grooming that she fainted. Never seen that in a dog before. It was horrible, because first I thought something was far more wrong than just fainting.

At the time we got Fancy years ago back in Germany, things were a little different with the training. We did not have the time for experiments and I was far away from feeling that I'd be able to train a dog. Regulations required her to be obedience trained within two weeks. Otherwise we would not have been allowed to keep her.

At that time my husband took care of the training - with what I call “traditional dog training” he knew from pet obedience school. And he did a darn great job with it!

Both of our ideas and experience again mix very well into our relationship with Djamila now.

But I absolutely agree: In every household things have to fall in place with humans and pets - ideas, character, gender, age, expectations, past, current life circumstances and so much more.

On another topic: I did not have much time for drawing lately. SO no cartoon today, but still I want to wish every real and every doggie father a HAPPY FATHER’s DAY!

BulliesofNC

I miss the cartoons.  (

abau004

Thanks all....I'm gonna try both .....I will keep you posted....for now I decided to take it easy on the cleaning...its so dusty here it doesn't help anyway....

mbgood

I am on both sides of this issue. 

My bully experience goes back about 20 years; I fostered a big, obstinate male that belonged to my boss; at the time, he was traveling a lot, so I kept Onan for 2-3 weeks every month for a couple of years and loved him like my own (I had a staff/mastiff mix at that time). Under the circumstances, since he was large for me (he was probably 75 pounds and I am 105), and set in his ways, and not my dog, pinning was not an option, nor was it really necessary; Onan was naughty but never aggressive.

I got my own bully puppy a while later, a female ("Piggy") and from the start used the pinning method with her, though only in the first year-and-a-half or so, never much needed to after age 2. She never displayed any aggression after the first year or two, just run of the mill bully stubbornness. I will point out that Piggy got really upset when touched near her tail when she was older and it turned out to be her anal sacs were impacted. Just a thought, with a behavior change, rule out an underlying condition.

Now with Murphy--also a female--I pinned her in the first year and a half, and now have really no challenge to my authority. She gets attention lavished on her every day, is so affectionate and snuggly, and really does not show any aggressive tendencies. She knows she is not the boss, and lives to please. But I would pin her in an instant if she growled at me.

She turned 2 last week. Best. Dog. Ever.

Djammy

That's so great! Our girls are not only twins in appearance, but also almost the exact same age!

Djammy and I, we've had our disagreements during her wildest puppy days either and I just had to buck up, BE the boss and show it.

Although she is far more of a joker and a bull head than a "native" cuddler, she is now becoming so affectionate and loves to please us. Sometimes melts my heart.

HAPPY BELATED BIRHTDAY, MYRPH!