Aggressive behavior with only submissive younger dogs
Ok so we have been having problems with Loki and dog aggression. It only has happened a few times with certain dogs and they all seem to be younger like around the 5 month mark. Tonight we took Loki to the dog park and he played for about 10 minutes and was fine until a 5 month old lab mix pup showed up and then Loki immediately tried to dominate her. He pinned her down and the puppy submitted but Loki still was growling wouldn't let her up and then he full on attacked her. Had her thigh in his mouth and started to do the terrier shake. I'm not sure what causes this because it only happens every once and awhile but once it happens with a certain dog he fixates on them and will always go after the other dog. I have talked with a trainer and she basically just said to let them fight it out! Well that's not going to work. The owner of the puppy was telling us to let them work it out that he's had aggressive dogs before. So even though I told the guy I didn't want it to escalate he said oh let him go and we will let them work it out. I told the guy I know my dog and that he will fixate on that pup and cause damage. Well all three times Loki went straight for her pinned her down and terrier shaked. I don't know how to fix this problem because it's not normal dog agression. It's not with every dog only certain ones. And it seems like it's always ones that are more submissive. We have socialized him from day one with other dogs and people and this started at around 6 months old. Has anyone had a similar problem with their bully? Any suggestions? I've considered getting an e-collar. The guy did mention that he had another dog the day before act the same way towards his dog a few days before the same story with the Doberman puppy he had a pervious run in with, and another dog which was a lab , the owner said that his dog being very submissive would constantly get attacked. So it seems that Loki is only aggressive towards extreamly submissive younger dogs?
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You will need to backtrack then. His dominance is not going to be helped leaving him unaltered. It will also make him a victim for adult unnuetered males because many will be offended at the smell he creates and his energy when he is unaltered. Obviously no dog parks. If you're serious about showing him, most in the show ring especially with a high energy bully breed are very cautious about the socializing. It's just how it is. We can make slight progress but his insecure dominance (what it's called when they only pick on the weaker ones) will remain strong if he remains unnuetered. So socializing will have to be kept to on leash, or one on one play dates with dogs he already gets along with. Unfortunately you can't have both, especially with a bull terrier.
Chooba has known a good swift swat to the rear on a few occasions, and gentle would not be how I would describe it, but with intent to hurt would be to far. These are very rare and have only happened when he has shown true aggression to either other dogs or people. And when I say aggression, this is real aggression, not rough play.
EBTs already carry a lot of stigma, although undeserved. If Loki was to ever do any real damage, a court will NEVER rule in your favor, and Loki would get the worst of it. He needs to know immediately that this wont be tolerated, and it must be a lesson he wont forget. IMHO.
Dont be a statistic / stereotype that I have to read about in the papers.
"Oh, he was always so good with the kids, I don't know what happened.........."
The last time an owner at the park decided to let his dog "fight it out," his dog kept attacking the other dog over and over while the other dog (of the same size) was submitting and yelping. It was me who stepped in and yanked his dog out by the collar. Owner didn't like me doing that too much
I see so many owners, especially of bull breeds, saying that it's not the dog's fault, it's the owners. Well...that's not always true. Some dogs can be trained to fight, some dogs can be aggressive out of fear because of abuse, but some dogs are aggressive in nature -- it's in their blood. Aggression is hereditary. It's possible that this is just how Loki is. That doesn't make him a bad dog, it just means you have to take steps to conform to him not only to protect other dogs but to also protect Loki.
Neutering may help, but it's never a guarantee. Most dogs I've seen get in squabbles are already fixed so the basis in that is low. It could tone down his hormones, but I think if he isn't a perfect show dog with a perfect personality he should be neutered anyway.
I am not a fan of e-collars as I believe they are harmful. I also did not use the pin method on my dog. She is typically submissive to me as it is, but when dogs piss her off (usually annoying her when she does not want to play) she'll have a go at them. If a dog is aggressive toward her first she will submit 90% of the time. When she has been in fights, I am on her immediately, yanked out by whatever part of her I can grab (it has been harness, scruff of neck, hips) and she is removed from the dog park at once. Personally I believe in quick discipline because that's how dogs do it. If a dog is mad, he snaps and then the reaction stops. Other dog immediately knows his behavior is unwanted. I think a swat to the butt would be good for Loki in extreme circumstances only. Swats are reserved for the worst behaviors. If you are uncomfortable doing this in public (dog park), perhaps a grab on scruff of neck would work. I have grasped Quinn very hard on the neck just behind her ears as a notice of disapproval in parks, then if I don't have the leash in my pocket I will walk her while holding harness/collar to get the leash and we will leave. She is reeled in very tight so she must walk beside me at my pace while we leave.
"Unfortunately you can't have both especially with a bull terrier." =; Save it. You can have a well balanced bull terrier that has nice leash manners and can play well with others. Don't let this trainer let you think otherwise!! We all have made mistakes raising our babies, but I do not think that Loki's outbursts are because of you.
I'm sorry this post was not planned very well, I just started rambling. Anyway. I'm sorry to hear you're having trouble with Loki. For all we know he could just be at a phase in his life where he thinks he needs to be the boss of everyone as if he has something to prove. Many young adults go through this I think... I think perhaps a firmer hand is needed here. Loki needs his confidence rebuilt if this aggressive is truly out of insecurities (though it sounds more like prey drive to me) and you need to show him that you're the boss and if he can't play nice he won't play at all! Keep us posted.
It's hot and miss. It's not every puppy it seems to be from what I've noticed only extreamly submissive types. The behaviorist said that he's basically an insecure bully picking on the weaker kids. What caused this insecurity I don't know. We won't be taking him to the dog park anymore. I was told by breeders in my club that they don't take their unfixed dogs to the dog parks at all for that reason. it has a lot to do with the testosterone but even the behaviorist said getting him fixed won't solved it because it's too late. I can work on the issues but they won't be completely solved. As for Loki showing I am told time and time again by these people that there is no such thing as a perfect dog. And they said even though he has a weak head he has a good body over all and a nice gait. And his head could possibly get better with age since he's not fully mature yet.
The true cause of the problem is that Loki has a dominant character and temperament. With this said, the reason he's getting aggressive with certain dogs is because of the mannerism in the way they are acting and reacting to him. Naturally most adolescent dogs from the ages of 5 months to 12 months do not have the maturity or experience to act normally around other dogs. Many are just learning what dominance and aggression is and they have no clue when and how to display it correctly around other dogs. That Lab puppy you encountered was most likely acting in a way that was challenging Loki. You may not have picked up on it but I guarantee Loki did and due to his temperament I'm confident he did not wish to be challenged with dominant behavior from an excited and energetic puppy. Not only will this type of behavior confuse Loki but if he isn't all that great with other dogs he'll welcome the opportunity to fight.
In regard to your trainer and the owner of the Lab telling you to basically let them "fight it out" the only that will become of doing so will be serious injury to one or both dogs. It will also trigger more aggression within Loki to the point he will show more and more dominance to every dog he meets with the welcoming of a fight from any one of them. In time this will only worsen and he will no longer provide another dog the opportunity to prove to Loki that they are not showing dominance and aggression. Instead Loki will attack unproved to any dog he encounters.
Allowing him to engage in these fights and behave in this manner will only make him worse. It's apparent your trainer is providing you with bad guidance and does not have much experience with this breed. The "Pin Method" is a disciplinary action that dogs instinctively understand. It results with the dogs' understanding that YOU as the owner are dominant to him and in control of his actions. Your Bullie should be listening to you and have a keen sense of what is or isn't accepted in regard to behavior.
There are times I let my Bullies get away with not listening to me when I call them because I know they are attracted to something else which has their undivided attention. I may even ignore them from time to time for sneaking into the kitchen when we're eating at the table. However, I never ignore improper dominant behavior or aggression. I will react in a split second if I so much see an ounce of it and my Bullies know it.
I caution you with the advice you're receiving from your trainer because I do not feel he is on the right track for correcting this problem which can easily escalate.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
I almost brought home a daughter of Emred Huntsman from a breeder in Texas a few days before this happened but I had a medical bill that I wasn't expecting blind side me so I had to tell the breeder that I would have to wait. I'm bummed out but honestly it's probably for the better until I can work with Loki more because if I bring a puppy home and there are serious out bursts I will have to neuter him and I was told by the behaviorist that that may not help the issue much because he has already learned the behavior. I am still waiting on a litter from Lanka-ore but I will have time to try and work on this problem with him. As for the pinning method I have used it everytime he has shown agression like that and it's hit or miss if he actually stops doing what he's doing. It seems like if the squabble isn't too bad the pinning method works but it seems like it just makes it worse for the bad ones like the other day. He is extreamly persistant in any kind of dominant display wether it be him mounting a dog ( he will do it over and over and not leave that dog alone no matter how much he gets told off) or going after one violently. The breeders that I am in contact with in the club agree that neutering isn't a cure all and they don't agree with it but they agree that taking him to the dog park is a bad idea as is any unfixed dog.
http://respectyourdog.com/read/what-alpha-rolling-is-really-doing-to-your-dog
PS - A Man I Am, but I only listen to my Bullies!
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
I agree, men are sometimes a little hard of hearing, but it is more frequently said that women think that the only purpose for ears is to attach jeweled earrings.
And I guess walks on the beach can't be too bad, eh? I guess if you have to give up dog parks a beach is a great alternative.
I don't know enough about showing to know whether Loki would be a good candidate, all I know is he's cute, 10/10, blue ribbon. But is neutering even in the picture for you? To me, he sounds manageable, and like you said neutering is unlikely to "cure" him. Wonder if it would make any difference though. I have seen one other dog in our local dog park group that does tend to pick on younger smaller dogs, and he is also a male, very dominant dog (though not bullie). I wonder if this is a male problem...? :P Anyway, I'm curious to see if you use another tactic besides pinning and if it works for you. Quinn is my first BT and I often think how I would raise a second one to see if I could do better. Probably not though because Quinn is perfect.
Sorry you were unable to get the new little BT! Her little ears are so big and floppy... Maybe it's for the best, like you said. Loki is still very young, I'm confident you'll see a change in his behavior in the next year or so. Mine has changed so much since then. Best of luck.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
2).
I can't say I've spent much of my life agreeing with Norwegians, but in Norway it's illegal to neuter a dog... On the basis that humans shouldn't have the right to alter a dog to the benefit of the human, a dog's life should be to the benefit of the dog. I have a bumper sticker that says "Spay and Neuter Liberals" but in this instance I believe the Norwegian liberal logic is correct.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
Moonflowers may not require co-ownership or have any additional charges for Full Registration due to the puppy being exported. However, I'm pretty sure Moonflower does in fact have a full registration contract. In the event you are wanting a puppy from an alternate breeder who is breeding with Moonflower bloodlines (like "Lankák-Őre Kennel) they may be a new breeder and haven't figured out the importance of co-ownership or Limited Registration.
The decision should be based on what the parents are like, what the health guarantee provides, pedigree, and contract details.
Good Luck.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com