Loki's bite

LokiLostCoast

So Loki's adult teeth are coming in now and most of them are already in. When he had his baby teeth he had a good bite but I'm a bit worried now because to me his lower K9s look like they are going to grow into his upper jaw. They have only just started popping through but I'm worried. Does his bite look messed up to you?

LokiLostCoast

Sorry I seem to be having problems uploading pictures

BulliesofNC

Try reducing the size of your photos and then downloading them onto the forum.

philsergeant

and .jpeg's upload better

LokiLostCoast

Hmm not sure how to do that from iPhone and my laptop blew up the other day.

LokiLostCoast

Here we go. What do you guys think? I've talked to one other person about it and they said "ball therapy" may help so I think we are going to try that.

LokiLostCoast

Here's another picture. And a picture of his bite before his adult teeth started coming in.

Djammy

Crooked teeth are not unusual among dogs (and humans).

I would recommend to discuss this matter with your vet, especially when this is the second set of teeth.

The reason for this suggestion is that the gum already looks a little stressed from the inclined tooth.

Djamila has a similar tooth failure.

Our vet also suggested the ball therapy, when we discussed that with her about a year ago.

The problem is that the ball needs to be small enough that it fits behind the teeth, so the ball can work against them and kind of push them outwards.

Unfortunately a ball that size is a choking or swallowing risk for the dog. Also it is not guaranteed that your dog will take and hold the ball as intended. We have tried it. But Djamila likes to chew on balls or kick and chase them, which does little to help the tooth malposition.

In order to create any impact, the ball would need to be held in her mouth for quite some time each day as directed over months.

Our vet informed us that there are also surgical and other options available to treat the condition. We eventually decided against anything like tooth pulling or surgery of any kind, because in Djamila's case the failure does not seem to compromise her well-being.

The gums are intact and her lower corner teeth have actually blunted a bit over time, the tip has flattened. So while they are still standing a little more narrow than normal they don't cause any damage or pain.

Also, and this was the most important criteria for us: They do not affect or impair her eating, chewing and fun of life in any way. Unless vital for her well-being or life, we try to avoid procedures involving sedation for our dog, because that always bears risks.

Of course this is something every dog owner thinks about differently.

Still, bottom line:

Especially if you watch your dog avoid chewing or showing signs of pain, this could be a case for the vet and sadly be something that can't be handled with the ball therapy alone.

Good luck that it's just a mild case!

LokiLostCoast

We are going to try the ball therapy and see what happens but it looks like his lower K9s are going to turn out just like your dogs. Bummer because his puppy teeth looked perfect

BulliesofNC

The teeth on a Bull Terrier change so much from 6 weeks old until maturity. As the head grows the lower jaw actually slides forward. This is why it's usually a good sign to see a slight overbite on an 8 week old puppy vice a perfect scissors bite. Obviously the amount of change a Bull Terrier goes through depends a lot of genetics in regard to how much of a slope the puppies head will have, how short and wide the muzzle will get, etc.
Vets are so used to looking at other breeds that have standard straight muzzles that grow out equally and prediction of teeth formation are a lot easier to predict. Unfortunately it's these Vets that often provide the EBT owners with a concern for the appearance of a bite at an early stage in the puppies life.
Looking at the recent photos of your puppy I predict that the lower canine will fall into proper place overlapping the upper teeth as an adult especially if both parents possess a nice roman head.
Having a perfect scissors bite is always nice but more judges today will put far greater emphasis on a proper head shape than how good the bite is.
There are specialists that can fix a dogs teeth just like a dentist fixes ours. So in the event the lower canine was to continue growing under the top teeth you always have the option of having it corrected. This may be something @Djammy might want to think about because that bite become problematic especially if the canine starts hitting the roof of the mouth during feeding. Some Vets may even recommend pulling the lower canines if finances are not in the budget for correction.
Right now my best advice is to wait until he matures and fully develops so you know for sure what the final result of his bite will turn out like. Again, I wouldn't be overly worried right now because I've seen teeth far worse develop into nice bites as matured adults.
 

Djammy

We have already spent some thorough thoughts on the tooth issue. And decided to wait after talking to the vet about it during a routine exam a few months after Djamila came to our family. As I remember she was not even one year old at that time.

During that consultation the vet also told us about the available medical options, as well as the ball therapy. We tried the ball therapy, but for the reasons described above, this did not work out.

In the course of a recent exam, we discussed the issue with our vet again, who agreed that we can wait. The bite seems to be ok so far. The corner teeth have flattened and do not hit the upper gum even when the bite is completely closed. The bite is not as it should be, but it does not seem to block anything or hurt, irritate the gum or inhibit proper eating and chewing. I guess it all depends on how much her teeth will be changing until she's fully grown.

For now things are ok. Still, I have a close eye on it during the regular tooth brushing.

If I'd notice any signs of pain or other problems occurring, this would become a case for a new evaluation and reconsideration.

Our former dog, Fancy, became 14 years old with a tooth failure all her life that never bothered her in any way. Yet, every case is different. And we’ll see how things develop for Djamila.

We always try to evaluate every situation thoroughly and also ask the vet for advice. If we have the feeling that we would be making a decision for procedures mostly out of cosmetic considerations, we try to spare our dog these procedures.

If it is or becomes something threatening health, well-being or life, of course that would be a different story.

BulliesofNC

If we have the feeling that we would be making a decision for procedures mostly out of cosmetic considerations, we try to spare our dog these procedures.

If it is or becomes something threatening health, well-being or life, of course that would be a different story.

That's understandable and I think most people that love their dog are the same way. However, even those that own particular breeds like Dobermans that often have the tails cut off, ears cropped, and dewclaws removed still love their dog very much and may simply want them to look their very best per the standard of the breed. 

As mentioned before, no bite is 100% perfect and there will always be a couple crooked teeth. I've heard about braces for dogs but just can't seem to grip the need for a dog to have perfect teeth when there's no health concern and the dog isn't bothered by it.

I'll tell you though, if you've ever really looked at the teeth on a Bull Dog it is pathetic. I don't know how they eat with such a messed up underbite and to think this was the look people were after when creating the breed.

Djammy

I don't know, if such bites as you have described are "standard" - but I really hope not!

Even if there are no problems due to pain or inhibitions occurring with an imperfect bite, I am always having second considerations.

You know, I think a lot!

For example, if I intended to breed, I would definitely triple check on the tooth issue before breeding the dog.

I don't know, how much impact genetics have on the development of the bite. That would be something to research then. 

Still, Djamila’s flaws - even though very mild and minor - would be reason enough for me to exclude her from breeding.

She is a wonderful and beautiful pet. I love her to pieces. But I don’t think that she has breeding quality.

I already mentioned it somewhere else - the tooth failure was what excluded our former dog Fancy from being a show dog back in Germany. To us that did not matter, because it never bothered her and honestly at that time I did not spend many thoughts on the background. Especially because I don’t intend to breed dogs.

Today I know a lot more. And looking back I think that we did get her from a pretty responsible breeder. One condition for us to have her was to sign that we will NOT breed her. 

Sadly he passed away some years ago, but he played an important role in the German show dog division for Bull Terriers.

With all I know today, considering these issues is important in order to obtain and refine the standards of a breed.

Every now and then some strange “trends” arise within some breeds, that are also not exactly helpful when it comes to the health of the breed. You probably know that in German Shepards and other breeds, for example, the very elegant sloping back and hip, as well as the very backwards oriented stand of the hind legs were once considered desirable and “standard”. Supported by these “standards” these dogs were bred right into widespread hip dysplasia.

Or those poor English Bull Dogs and other short-nosed dogs. They are so cute, I’d love to have one for the looks. But they are paying a high price for it with very probable breathing and drooling troubles all their life.

And all of that shows what can go wrong even in controlled breeding. At least I guess that those health impairments were not part of the plan.

So, when things can go so wrong under controlled conditions with selective breeding, it is probably even less likely to predict how wrong it can go under UNcontrolled conditions - such as backyard breeding etc.

All that shows, how complex the entire process of manipulating evolution by controlled or uncontrolled breeding is. And that even the experts are not always right.

As you probably guessed already, Steve, I am honestly not a big fan of cropping a dog’s body parts. I guess that some of it may actually have originated in the intended purpose of the dog or existing health issues. I can imagine that cropping of floppy ears originally may have happened in order to prevent continuous ear infections or improve hearing. 

And at some point it became “standard”.

Cropping is a controversial topic. I think just like in cosmetic surgery in humans there are people voting for and against it.

It is a bit different than breeding in my opinion, though. Because breeding is more permanent and does not only impact one individual. It should not be led by cosmetic factors only. Breeding should be driven by the desire to improve the overall health of a breed.

For us as pet owners all these considerations do not seem to matter a lot - or do they? Eventually they do. And somebody SHOULD care about exactly these matters. Because we have to rely on specialists and responsible breeders like you, in order to get healthy pets that live a long life.

Sure, there is a lot we can do ourselves for our dogs, like good quality nutrition and good overall care, training etc.

But after all we should also care about breed standards and for example refrain from the desire to randomly breed dogs in our own living room. I am not a big fan of spaying for the reasons mentioned before (procedure for the dog).

But I think there are a lot more possibilities to avoid pregnancy, other than spaying.

Sorry, that was a little off-topic and more meant in general than it would be related to the starter of this thread.

But I think when it comes to health questions, it's important to take a look at the big picture. And if your dog has crooked teeth - even if they are not bothering him - it should ring a bell. So much is for sure.

BulliesofNC

I don't know, if such bites as you have described are "standard" - but I really hope not!

Even if there are no problems due to pain or inhibitions occurring with an imperfect bite, I am always having second considerations.

You know, I think a lot!

------

Don't mistake my words when I mention about Bull Dogs having nasty under bites which are normal for their standard and think that something like this would be acceptable with the Bull Terrier breed.

BULL DOG STANDARD (Bite): Bite - Jaws - The jaws should be massive, very broad, square and "undershot," the lower jaw projecting considerably in front of the upper jaw and turning up. Teeth - The teeth should be large and strong, with the canine teeth or tusks wide apart,
and the six small teeth in front, between the canines, in an even,
level row.

BULL TERRIER STANDARD (Bite): Teeth: Should meet in either a level or in a scissors bite.
In the scissors bite the upper teeth should fit in front of and closely against the lower teeth, and they should be sound, strong and perfectly regular.

The objective with any breedings that are done properly and professionally are to ensure the dogs chosen for breeding are free from any bad qualities which could jeopardize the future of the breed vice preserve it with the qualities depicted within the standards. It would be additionally important to ensure that any dog be considered for breeding was fully health tested to ensure the dog planned to be bred was free from congenital problems and the chances of passing down genetic disorders were greatly minimized.  Obviously doing so with a dog that came from reputable bloodlines with a clear history of good health is preferred. However, even when breeding two champion dogs with perfect attributes it does not mean all puppies will pull the best qualities and be free from genetic fault.

In short, the bite on a Bull Terrier puppy is hard to predict the future outcome of when their growth and development of their head and jaw go through so much change in comparison to other breeds. An adult with a slight overbite or even bite wouldn't be need for worry and would be fairly common in the breed (even with those being shown). However, a Bull Terrier that has its adult lower canines tucked under the upper teeth would be a much more significant fault and draw concern for impacting the dogs health. I most definitely wouldn't advise using a Bull Terrier with this type of bite as a good choice for breeding.

Djammy's bite is actually a lot worse than Loki's. Djammy's adult teeth have already developed into place and that lower canine placement can become problematic which may not protrude into the pallet of her mouth but could prevent rear teeth from meeting together in order to break down food appropriately. Many Vets may even recommend extracting the lower canines due to their current location. The upper canine is located further back than normal which could very well have pushed the lower canine inside the upper row of teeth. Loki's teeth alignment on both bottom and top do not appear as bad in placement and with growth and development I'm willing to bet her lower canine will reside outside in the proper location vice inside. Time will tell with her.

tazmaniandevil

I could also do with some advice as my dogs teeth arnt correct. His lower jaw seems to narrow and the bottom teeth hit the gum inbetween the top 2. He is 8 months now so im really hopefull they will come good.

LokiLostCoast

Fingers crossed that his start moving toward the outside. Really hoping they do and he ends up with a correct bite I'll have to post another picture tonight for an update on where they are now. All his other teeth look good so far it's just those two lower ones I'm worried about

tazmaniandevil

My vet last week did a quick operation on vinnys teeth, they cut away some of the gum at the top and shaved a bit from his lower tooth and now it has a channel to go outside the top set. Not sure if vets everywhere do this tho

LokiLostCoast

So this is what his teeth are looking like now. Still on the inside.

BulliesofNC

It's not looking promising right now as his teeth are growing but there's not much change in regard to his jaw and muzzle.

@tazmaniandevil brings up a procedure that his Vet did with his Bullie that may very well prove affective. You may want to consult your Vet on this now while your Bullie's teeth are still growing and forming. If there can be something done now that will aid in getting those two lower canines to grow on the outside vice push inwards into the mouth it would be great.

LokiLostCoast

I'm not sure if there are any vets that do that kind of stuff around here but I will ask. I made Loki an appointment for Saturday so we will see what his vet says I'll update when I find out more Saturday evening.

Djammy

Interesting information! I'm happy that I've jumped into this discussion. For now things are good. But this thread definitely holds some valuable information ready in case the situation is becoming critical.

It's stunning again to see how many dogs are dealing with malocclusions. Hm.

LokiLostCoast

Ok so here is Loki's update. I took him to the vet for a regular check up and to get his ears and teeth looked at . He has been having some ear issues since we got him and we have been cleaning them regularly but haven't cleared up. The vet gave me some ear drops to use for the next 7 days and hopefully that will take care of that problem. Now as for his teeth... She said that since all of his adult teeth haven't come in yet that it's still possible for those two lower K9s to fall into place and to try the ball therapy ( need to find a ball small enough) or if they start bothering him that they can be extracted or capped but those are really my only options because there are no vet specialist in the area that can do the braces or the other procedure that was talked about. So it's a wait and see with his teeth. She said it is very odd that his puppy teeth were good but his adult teeth are coming in this way and that they normally only see that when the puppy teeth don't fall out and the adult teeth start coming in. Which didn't happen with his.

philsergeant

What's up with his ears?... yeast infections (surface) or deep infections.??... does he have lots of wax/ crud?

philsergeant

These are Isabellas... I don't think is possible to avoid some conflict between lower incisors and upper gums??

philsergeant

These are Marco's, .... same deal

philsergeant

Marco, lookin' vicious

LokiLostCoast

He had a lot of wax and gunk in his ears. His left one was worse then his right but only a little redness and she said that the drum looked fine. She didn't say that they were infected but maybe close to being? She cleaned them out the same way I had been doing and prescribed some ear drops that I'll have to apply once every 24 hours for 7 days

LokiLostCoast

Here is how they are looking now. His right looks better then his left which seems to be further behind his top canine. So really hoping that when the last of his adult teeth come in that they will push them forward.

LokiLostCoast

So here's an update on Loki's bite. Both sides are looking a lot better but one side obviously better then the other and I'm hoping with more growth that other tooth gets clear of his gums. He is currently 40.2lbs and about 6 months old.

BulliesofNC

Most definitely looking miles better and improving more and more as the time goes on. This is a good example of how much the bite of a Bull Terrier changes during growth and maturity. His left side is questionable right now now but time will tell if it becomes problematic or that lower canine eases in place over the gum. Trust me, there's a lot of Bull Terriers with much worse bites than what I'm seeing with his. Currently it's looking better than I had imagined and if I were a betting man I'd say both lower canines will grow and mature in the correct location on the outside.

LokiLostCoast

We have been doing the ball therapy with him but who knows if that's been helping or if his teeth are moving out themselves. They are definitely looking more promising than before