So the kids got into a fight...

MonaLisa

Hi all,

So here's the update on Coco and Enzo. I was having some issues with Coco and her dominate tendencies. I put their crates together and started doing things with the both of them and everything was looking like it was heading in the right direction. I kept using the pin method when she tried to hump things or when she was on top of Enzo and wouldn't let him get up or move and it seemed to work good. They are now taking turns pinning each other and it has yet to turn aggressive when they are playing. I am now able to leave them outside together when I go to work which I was not able to do before so there has been improvement. I have been having trouble during feeding time, I do not let them in my "space" while I'm getting the food ready but Coco will try and fight with Enzo, I have tried making a claw with my hand and poking her with it by the neck like I seen on dog whisper but it seems to get her more pumped up so I started just having them separate when I get the food ready. She is good when she eats, I make her sit and have eye contact before I feed her and also have done the taking the food away and putting it back and putting my hand in it and she is fine.

So the fight they got into today has been an issue but they have never fought this bad. Enzo is still a puppy (6mts) and he is nipping a lot lately which I address by a stern no and if he continues I pin him and again tell him a stern no. Well Coco seems to be extremely protective and has been biting him, it kinda looks like a "stop it" bite because it doesn't really go on from there other than from that point on Coco will not let Enzo get close to me. She is 8 months and is becoming very protective. This fight started something similar to I told him no (he kept biting me) and then coco started the nipping on him. I quickly "clawed her" like the dog whisper does to hopefully get her brain to stop being so fixated on him, and it backfired by him having enough and they both went after each other. I think he is tired of her picking on him and he went off. I finally was able to get them apart (after about 5-6 minutes) and cleaned them up and looked for any wounds because they both had blood on them, thankfully there was only a couple of small scratches on them (the amount of blood was from me, those boogers got my hands) but they are ok now. I was horrified because it is so upsetting to see the animals you love fight. I know there was things I could have done better and the lack of experience of owning EBT's is not on my side, but I'm stuck on what kind of help or support I can look to help train me to help my dogs. I have gone to vets and trainers but they all do not have experience with bull terriers. So if anyone has any suggestions or even can recommend somewhere in northern Cali that can help me with Coco and her dominate/protective tendencies then please let me know. I was originally going to call bark busters which is a company that helps train owners to handle behaviors. They are good dogs and I love them very much I just need help in my training because I'm instilling these bad habits into them not meaning to, but it's my fault. I am just grateful that they are not hurt and they were licking each other through their crate and are fine now so they are over it, but I hope to not have that happen again.

MonaLisa

Thank you for the reply! When I claw she will look at me and I tell her no and once again she will look at him and when I repeat she usually always will nip at him. As for the pinning I usually pin until she seems submissive ( doesn't feel tense and will not get up until I tell her to) and tell her sternly no, and when she gets up she usually will try and lick me and I'll just ignore her. The pinning is getting easier but she will just stare at him. It used to take me When she continues to stare at him I pin her because she is just so fixated on him. And I think I was bitten because of the way I tried to pull them apart,, not that it's an excuse but I tried pouring water on them because my arms are now to short because they are growing fast to pin them at the same time anymore. Usually water works when they get Into little arguments. I know a source is that bark busters for me to get help because I'm doing something wrong for them to be behaving like that. I just didn't know if that would be a good source to go to. Because I can't seem to do it on my own, wether it be my timing or my confidence.

xchairity_casex

STOP ESCALATING HER.

She is becoming defensive when you do that with your hand- stop it, you are NOT Cesar Millan- If you cannot read the body langue and you are not in the right emtional state of mind you will only cause what you have been causing.

The reason Cesar Millan can do the things he does is because he can see the switch of a dog the second it happens.

You have to be a very aware person and respect when to when to push and when to step back to defuse a situation.

My own female is quite reactive when touched or pushed- I can see when its a bad time to be physical- and when it is a good time, thus I am defusing situations and preventing accedents as well as teaching her how to make better choices.

If You cant read your dog 150%- DONT get Physical!

You may alos note Cesar Millan only "PINS" dogs down for several seconds before releasing total pressure- because he is in a good mind set and hte dog understands what is expected-Cesar Millan does not "HOLD" dogs down unless htey are in a total panic, and even then the SECOND  the dogs body relaxes- he does as well.

Please stop doing this untill you can better understand your dogs because it is only  likely to escalate the issue.

I suggest you:

#1. come down hard on your dogs daily activities and rules. Write a daily schedule for your dogs and follow it precisely. Remove ALL rewards (being allowed on furniture, toys, free feeding, attention, being allowed on beds, being allowed in specific areas of the house etc) ANYTHING you can potentially use as a reward for your dogs-make access to them limited and ONLY under your permission.

You can even include water access and yard access.

your dogs shouldnt even walk out the door without your permission.

#2. follow these strict routine and schedule, make each dog take proper turns and wait. if your dog nudges you for attention-ignore them 100% and turn away until your dog walks away and ignore you- then imediatly call  them over to be petted (ONE AT A TIME ONLY!) NO ONE is allowed to nudge the other aside while your petting them- if one dog is being pette and the other butts in- ignore  and block them.

Neither dog is treated special- BOTH dogs are starting from scratch as if htey are both brand new puppies.

reward each dog appropriatly based on CURRENT actions.

Your dog being CALM is the behavior you are looking for. not JUST sitting, not JUST looking at you- BEING CALM.

#3. EXERCISE! EXERCISE! EXERCISE!

Get them out, get them moving, every day as much as you can.

#4.YOU NEED TO WORK ON TEACHING THEM BOTH FEEDING TIME IS A CALM EXPERIENCE!

Your female is GUARDING her food from HIM- meaning she does not like the thought of him taking her food- this is normal, this is common. she needs to learn that  YOU are PROTECTING HER and her food- not that YOU ARE YELLING AT HER FOR DOING WHAT COMES NATURALLY.

You need to prove to her that YOU will protect them BOTH from having there food stolen.

because YOU dictate who eats and when and what happens to each food bowl.

You are ALWAYS FAIR

 and you are ALWAYS CALM.

this helps them build trust in YOU to not

#1. hurt them or yell at them

#2. that you will not allow there feeding to be disturbed.

THOSE ARE YOUR GOALS- showing your dog you are trust worthy and that you respect them

DOMINATING THEM IS NOT IT 

even the word

"DOMINATING"

conjures up images and ideas of force and being physical and that is NOT what Cesar Millian teaches AT ALL.

A Lead dog would NEVER correct another pack member for doing what came naturally- resource guarding IS natural- excitment is NOT.

If you want a good example of my own NILF rules I had set in my household for close to a year for my two:

-water was not free, i put it out every half hour then picked it back up when they were done drinking.

-passing me on the stairs was not allowed-if they tried i would simply stop and cut in front of them and make them wait untill i began walking again.

-when ever someone nudged me to be petted they were ignored untill they walked away- then i would imedietly call them back over and pet them untill i was done.

-any dog trying to push into being petted while i was petting another dog or cat was ignored and blocked untill they walked away and left us alone- at which point they would be called over to be petted as well and the same rules applie to the other dog- ONE PET AT A TIME. and cats were favored over either dog.

-no dogs allowed in the kitchen while im preping food- we have no door, but i would tell them "out of the kitchen" and walk into them backing them up untill they were out- then i turn and go about my buissiness, if they passed my invisible barrier, they were sent RIGHT back until i was done in the kitchen- no matter what!

-no dogs up  on my bed- EVER.

-no dogs allowed on the couch uninvited.

-toys were kept in an open box in the living room, NO DOG was allowed to pull ANY toy from it, only i was

if i dropped a toy inside they had to leave it and walk away- NO MATTER WHAT. if they took a toy out, i walked over and simply took it from them and put it back into the box, they take it out, i put it back.

- ALL GAMES are MY choice innitiated by ME only. and I am also the one who decides when it is done

I dont care if they are in the middle of a wrestle or tugg fest- if i touch that toy it means "LET GO AND STOP"

-NO ONE leaves an open door to go outside untill i say its okay.

-feeding is an hour or two ritual after exercising, the wait for me to prep the food CALMLY, they wait for me to give them the food, they eat from there own dish-never looking at each other never touching eachothers dishes, when they are done they leave hte bowls and walk away.

-cats are NEVER played with or aproached in a playful manner.

-being off lead- the dogs come when i call or are put back on lead.

it took a billion repetitions for each action and each rule, every day, every day, it would take me 30 minutes some night to pour a glass of ice water keeping hte dogs from the kitchen.

some days it would take me an hour to keep a single dog toy in the toy box  and most days it took me an hour to basically pat each dogs head once or twice because they were hell bent on getting into a pushing match for attention.

After doing this every day before long it became conditioned habits instead of "who will win"

the dogs learned "no matter how hard i push her- I wont get what i want untill i RELAX  and submitt to whats he is asking of me' (AKA-walking away or calming down or following the rule i have set)

Once they got to the point of following these rules without my reminding them- they were rewarded with what they wanted- and that would be whatever it was they were working hard to get (be it toys, affection, food or going outside)

My dogs now get on the couch freely (but know if i send them off it means "GET OFF AND STAY OFF TILL I SAY"

they have free access to toys- but they know that if i say "ITS MINE LEAVE IT" it means give it to me and dont touch it till i give it to you"

the dogs have a bowl of water out freely- but if i say "Get Back" it means "step away from the water"

If you want to be forceful with your dog- i suggest doing more researching into dog behavior.

otherwise, please use the plan i have set out for you.

Submission is not about your dog cowering or tucking its tail when you shout- its a dog who CHOOSES to look at you when it unsure of itself or becomes excited.

that is TRUE leadership and true respect.

BulliesofNC

@MonaLisa - One of the biggest problems you have going right now is the mere fact that due to the age of your Bull Terriers and their maturity they are both striving for the alpha position between them selves and they are not taking heed to your disapproval of their aggression towards each other especially during times of feeding.
xchairity_casex provided you with some good advice as well as some feedback on how she manages both her Bull Terriers in order to achieve discipline within her household.
All Bull Terriers are different and what may work for one may not for the other. In many cases some Bull Terriers take a lot more effort in training than others due to differences within their temperament and character.
One thing for sure, all Bull Terriers between 4 months of age through 14 months are age require a lot of work in regard to training and obedience. that are very amped up and with two of them at that age they are both learning good and bad from each other.
Your male bull terrier may be younger than the female by a couple months but as he's maturing he's quickly learning that he just might not think to fondly of bowing down to a female who is only slightly older than himself. I have a feeling pretty soon your female will realize she can no longer dominate over him.
Boyda brought up a very good point by saying your Bull Terriers should be listening to you and clearly know that you are the alpha of the house. They should in fact STOP immediately when you tell them to during the times they are showing aggression or initiate into a fight. However, due to their current ages it's going to be a lot more difficult.
I realize how much you wish to feed them together and try your best to get them to interact with love and friendship throughout the day without any signs of dominance or aggression. I'm confident they are both displaying dominant acts throughout the day and most of the time you aren't noticing it and corrections aren't being made.
Please note, as both dogs grow and mature they will not only position themselves appropriately on the alpha chain of command but their aggression, dominance, and constant "role testing" will minimize enormously.
I've raised Bull Terriers for years and have grown up with dogs my whole life. I have also raised Bull Terriers together that were the same age group as yours and understand the difficulties in comparison to raising a puppy with an adult which can also have challenges but not nearly in comparison to raising 2 that are young, from different bloodlines, and "naturally" competing for the alpha position.
The full fledged fight your two Bullies engaged in won't be forgotten any time soon and the possibilities of it happening again are likely if they are in a similar situation.
Due to their constant aggressive tendencies I would continue to test their patience with each other especially when it comes to food and treats. This will only entice them to challenge each other especially if they are not taking heed to your discipline and commands. Due to the fight over food I would keep them separated while eating until they work out the dominate roles in normal situations that may not provoke an explosive fight. They both need time to mature and, as mentioned by others, they need to know you are the boss.
Had your two bullies been siblings it would have been easier for them to learn to get along due to their familiarity with each other, shared bloodlines, and affection with each other since birth. Until others have experienced raising 2 youngsters from separate litters it's hard to recommend the training that worked well for an adult and mature EBT with a young puppy.
TIME is going to be your best tool. Keep them well exercised and active. Minimize the treats and other things that engage competition. Try not to provide attention to them that causes too much excitement. They will mature and they will learn to get along with the right training and discipline. Don't rush it and expect miracles regardless how many you talk to tell you they should be getting along perfectly under all circumstances. They are still animals taking role on the alpha chain of command. Allow them to do it slowly, peacefully, and maturely. It will come if you guide it with authority and control.

MonaLisa

That is my biggest problem is that I am struggling with the role of alpha. I got into contact with a certified behaviorist/therapist in my area and she said she has worked with EBT's before so I'm going to try her help. Im hoping she can help me train myself and also see all the opportunities for discipline, because as @BulliesofNC mentioned I know I'm missing important signs.

Soapskid

I missed a lot of signs early on and I'll be honest I've never had a dog as stubborn as this. We had poodles when I was a kid and almost most of the time they didn't require much supervision since they were smaller.

With bullies in matter how much work it is you almost have to exercise them every play. If I don't socialize and excercise Spud daily I can't be mad at him and his behavior for the day. I always push myself to take him out and the reward is an enjoyable quiet afternoon of Spud being tired.

I want to add another bully but not until Spud fully matures. I've made the decision but when do you think it would be appropriate to add a female? Spud at this point doesn't give me any issues other than having to exercise him daily. He listens and is completely house trained to the point he will sleep unsupervised at night on my bed or floor with no accidents.

I will be building a kennel out in the back that can be as big as 10-15 feet in length both ways and can build even more if needed for two dogs possibly. Just checking out any suggestions from those who have experience.

philsergeant

Most of the above advise is spot on.... I think some missed the age of your dogs and are expecting too much of a puppy. The mind set, as you pointed out yourself, is the biggest issue. Not only do you have have to be totally in charge, but you have got to believe success will happen..... If, in the back of your mind are the words; "I think I may be able to get this right", then simultaneously in their minds are the words, " ah, she's a pushover, we don't need to pay attention"
Besides Xchairity's note about "things" of possession, what about spaces, is the kitchen a confined space... If they are interacting in a small space that's the worst stimulator.