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Does Wilma have SOA?

katkat
edited November 2013 in Bull Terrier Character
A month ago I posted a thread about my 5 month old BT being aggressive toward our other dogs. She has come leaps and bounds and is really no longer aggressive with the dogs during the daytime. Our problem now... is that she is attacking the dogs on the bed when she is either trying to go to sleep or is asleep. Any sort of movement on the bed sends her into a rage. Last night, she attacked our old BT in the middle of the night because he was trying to make a nest out of the blankets! They fought for a good minute until I could get out of  bed and turn on the lights. She immediately got put in her crate for the rest of the night. Wilma has been doing this for a month or so. She occasionally growls at me if I move on the bed but will get her neck wrung and put in the crate. She doesn't do it to me often....it's the other dogs. Also, she is constantly trying to lay on me...either my legs or wants to wrap herself around my head. She has to have contact with me. I have pushed her off me a million times, placed her on the other side of the bed but she never gives up. For the aggression issue, I have tried Yelling at her, giving her the "cesar poke" , using a spray water bottle and it works for the time being but in just a little while she is growling if there is any movement on the bed and will attack. From what I have read about SOA it appears it happens when the dog is sound asleep. Wilma usually becomes aggressive when she is TRYING to go to sleep and is disturbed. Any suggestion on how I should handle this?

Comments

  • BulliesofNCBulliesofNC Richlands, NC
    This doesn't sound like SOA. However, it does sound as though she's developing a bad problem because she thinks she's the alpha. For her to growl at you only means she's under the impression she can get away with it. Her behavior needs to stop and yelling at her and putting her in her crate may not be the best solution to sink in her head that she isn't the alpha or boss and that YOU are.
    If it were me I would use the "Pin" method which all dogs fully understand. This is a very effective way to let them know they have no dominance over you and that You are the alpha. The next time your Bullie ever challenges you with any act of aggression or dominance quickly grab her and pin her to the ground by her neck. Sit on her if neccessary if she tries to escape. Hold her head against the floor until she stops and submits. This does NOT physically hurt her in any way  but it will hurt her feelings because she'll know right away that you're upset with her. Most importantly it will also prove to her that You're the alpha. While pinning her you should be saying "NO!" and being firm about the discipline.
    Your bed has obviously become a place where she has claimed to be "hers." You may want to keep her off the bed for a while.

    Looks like Boyda beat me with a response but it looks like the "Pin" method is encouraged by others.

    - Steve Gogulski
    "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
    www.bulliesofnc.com
  • This is a dominance issue. My male exibited this same behavior while relaxing and its her way of saying I own you, this bed and I'm the boss her reprimand for any disterbance is growling and snarling. She would not be alowed on the bed at all. I would feed/ treat the others before her and when she gets nasty pin her. Only allow her up when she quits stuggling. Nothing in life is free fir her until she learns your alpha and her and the others are equal. Stay calm when reprimanding and be firm. If your scared your feeding her iner demon.
    Your actions speak so loudly I cannot hear your words.
  • And Steve beat me!!!! Haha
    Your actions speak so loudly I cannot hear your words.
  •  I think I should try pinning. If I don't let her on the bed at all I kind of feel I'm not dealing with the problem....just avoiding it. 
  • How should I keep her from laying on me when we are in the bed?

  • When you pin her make sure her WHOLE BODY is down. Mine tries to keep his butt in the air. It makes it seem like "haha, you can't get me all the way". I don't know how large your bullie is but I have to sit on Apollo now to pin him. Make sure you get right down in her neck when you say no. You have to pull out the meanest, baddest NOOOO you got from deep down in your throat. It may take a couple time too, because she's definitely going to push you! Good Luck!
  • Bull Terrier= Bulldog + Terrier.......YIKES! 
  • @Boyda. Wilma has been fixed for 5 weeks or so. She doesn't guard toys and is not at all food aggressive.
  • philsergeantphilsergeant Palm City, Florida, USA
    I believe this encapsulates my beliefs about dogs and beds. I am a firm believer that they should not share your bed, or even share beds with one another. Both create all sorts of hierarchy problems. If they sleep with you they try and control your space, and their position in the relationship ... With each other, their domination of that mutual environment, and ALL TOGETHER!!! Well that totally permutates the situation. Even on the couch, we experience their attempts to sit higher, overcrowd and control the environment.... We have to vigorously discourage any attempts to establish dominance. And we need to be vigilant to catch their efforts inside a split second ( otherwise they don't get the message).... So if you're asleep, they rule, you can't counteract and control any relationships/ interaction. Each should have their own crate/ sleeping space and if they choose to cuddle with each other/ or you outside that "individually reserved" space, then that's great.... But the discipline needs be maintained.
    In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
  • I wanted to give you an update on my Wilma. She will be 2 years old in May and is a totally different dog. She has become a wonderful, kind, gentle dog. she no longer does the growling on the bed like she used to do. she has not attacked any other dogs for months now. I guess she just needed to grow up. Here is a picture of her with her baby chickens. she loves any baby creature. the second picture is of her looking in the baby chicken brooder
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  • Awww. Can't get the pics to download. Just wanted to let you know that she is doing well and thank you for your help.
    IMG_20150312_103953777.jpg
    5248 x 2952 - 5M
    IMG_20150312_221146.jpg
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  • BulliesofNCBulliesofNC Richlands, NC
    @kat - I'm happy to hear back from you. If you only knew how many people contact us in regard to their Bull Terriers alpha or dominant behavior during the adolescent phase. Many have great concerns about the future behavior of their dog and don't realize many Bull Terriers go through this stage which will pass with maturity and proper training. It's just not characteristic of a Bull Terrier to be a mean dog or one that shows any form of aggression to people. I'm happy to hear your Bullie has grown out of this stage and most likely has become the perfect companion. It always seems as though the 2 year old range is when they finally lose their crazy puppy habits and settle into truly loyal, lovable, humorous dogs.

    - Steve Gogulski
    "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
    www.bulliesofnc.com
  • philsergeantphilsergeant Palm City, Florida, USA
    @kat, that's fabulous, thanks for coming back and sharing... It is wonderful when the true character of a Bullie is massaged to come through... It's hard work at which too many fail... I'm so glad you are reaping the rewards of your love.... Terrifik!!!  But you must try again to upload the photo(s)! please.
    In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
  • Greetings from California!

    I'm having a very similar issue with our BT, who is 3.5 years old now. When I stayed on top of my training, walking, and really interacting with him, he was much better. 

    Now that he has a yard to be in, I will say that I've been slacking on training and walking my dog so I've really seen how it changes things pack structure in the household.

    To keep it short - our dog does the same thing except he's in his crate, with the crate door closed. He will do this when I make certain sounds (open drawers, plug wires in, open closet). I know that staying on top of my training w/ positive reinforcement will help, so that's definitely something I've been fitting into my schedule. That said, in the mean time when he does this, what do you suggest?

    For me, pinning him is out of question. I've worked with trainers who taught me to do this correctly, and at the end the day, it wasn't as effective for me. Fast fwd 2 year later, I worked with another trainer, using remote collar, and also positive reinforcement training. This has helped tremendously, and I know as I get back on the training schedule, it will help Oliver with everything in the long run. That said, if I can't pin him when he's growling in his crate, what do you guys suggest?

    I've been doing a firm "No!" and he'll usually start to calm down, but he'll do it again if I make the noise again and it just repeats. This generally happens for a while, then he'll gave a big loud yawn which is an indicator for me that he's no longer in "grumpy" mode. At this point, I'll let him sit for a bit quietly and then get food and take him in the yard. 

    Do you guys have suggestions on how to handle the grumpy mode while I'm getting my pack structure back the correct direction?

  • I am sometimes confused, if people are really talking about their dogs having SOA or just typical dog behavior.
    SOA is a pretty serious, but also as I understand rather rare condition in dogs.

    http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/7_6/features/Rage-Syndrome-In-Dogs_5639-1.html

    The problem with SOA is that it can increase to really dangerous situations and that unlike other forms of aggression it usually can’t be addressed by training.

    That being said, when a dog reacts aggressive, the first question to ask is: Is THIS really SOA or just “normal” aggression?
    If SOA really is the issue, I think a professional evaluation by a vet and if possible the help of a trainer are necessary. I would not try to deal with this kind of aggression - which is basically a mental dysfunction and has nothing to do with problem behaviors resulting from lack of training - on my own.

    In your case you know the triggers. And while you may not understand why your goes after an opening door, your dog probably has it’s reasons.
    MANY dogs do “attack” things, such as vacuums, water jets or hoses, drawers, even fast walking people (usually ankles).
    This is normal dog behavior, especially for Bull Terriers, who have “chasing” small things bred into their genes (they were used to hunt small rodents in the past).
    That also may be one reason why many of them are so ball addicted. But that’s just a wild guess.

    As the chasing is instinct driven to a certain extend, I think that either training with lots of patience or avoiding the triggers (knowing that avoiding doesn’t change the underlying behavior) are the way to go.

    Many times when we conclude that “training doesn’t work” what we really say is “the training has not generated the desired result within the time frame we had in mind for it to work”.

    That basically means that we are either not consistent enough and thus are making the learning experience more confusing for our dog. That happens when we take care of the problem with training once in a while and sometimes just let it slide. That doesn’t send a clear message.
    We can absolutely do that, but we can’t blame the dog then for not learning quickly enough. We either have to be absolutely consistent or to be honest to ourselves that we were not. :)
    OR sometimes we indeed ARE very consistent, yet our expectations are just far to high. Patience is key in learning through experience. Every dog has its own tempo in learning.


    I favor positive reinforcement as a learning method wherever I can. But it is important to always keep in mind that this is a SLOW learning method. It’s in the nature of this training and one reason why the success is so sustainable eventually. The learned behaviors are kind of imprinted into the dog’s mind through repeated rewarding of desired behavior.
    But it takes time for the dog to figure out WHICH behavior is the one being rewarded.
    Within the second we are trying to catch with our reinforcement the dog watches, listens, licks its nose, raises its head, blinks, shuffles, breathes AND does NOT attack the door. It takes the dog some time to figure out that out of all those behaviors NOT attacking the door was the one that was being rewarded.
    This learning process is only possible through repetition and consistency in order to provide a consistent learning experience to the dog: “Ah, NOT attacking the door is what makes good things happen.”

    So in this case if training did not work so far, I would advice to double check, if you are rewarding the right alternative behaviors and not inadvertently undesired ones (often also a matter of timing) and if you are really training all of the situations that need to be addressed.
    Just because doggie knows now that the vacuum shall not be attacked, she does not automatically know that this also goes for drawers and doors. Very different matter. :)

    Another word about growling and other “aggressive” noises.
    Our last EBT also made “grumbly” noises whenever she met someone she was afraid of. We never punished her for that or told her not to do it.
    Bull Terriers are usually not big barkers, but have a huge repertoire of other noises: grumbling, humming, snoring …
    I think they all have some kind of meaning. And by far not everything that SOUNDS like a growl to us is really meant hostile. They express all kinds of emotions through those noises, of course anger now and then, but also fear, discomfort or pain and sometimes even positive emotions (Djamila does).
    I grant my dog her communication and rather try to find the triggers and react to them, not to the behavior.

    If a dog constantly tries to dominate others throw threatening growls, that of course is an issue that should be addressed. But even then, looking into the triggers often reveals that the dog may just be insecure, scared to lose its toys or food or it is just impatient (yeah, that happens :).
    If that behavior feels uncontrollable, the help of a professional trainer may be in order.

    I don’t know, if I hit the nail on the head with my assumptions. These are just some things that often come to my mind, when people say “training doesn’t work” - I often have a feeling like we humans tend to give up way too soon sometimes.

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