All very well put together bullies for sure. I think we'll just set our sights on adopting one after the first of the year. I'd adopt the tri-pod in a heartbeat if they would let her come to a home with another bullie.
yes-good breeders do screen, however the average show/ pet breeder usually has no problems placing a puppy in the average home. a working dog would never be welcomed in your average family.
a working dog is better off with a single person or a couple who is VERY active, VERY dog savy as well as VERY advanced dog owner.
i doubt any of those puppies would do well in a home with a person who has never owned a bull terrier before, or even a home who has owned one or two other bull terriers.
even a person like me would have a difficult time owning a working dog pup and would probably not pass the cut
I see you keep refering to them as "working dogs" despite viewing their bloodlines and pedigree. May I ask why you feel this particular litter from requires special consideration being that they are coming from Moon flower bloodline? Nitro fathers is CH Moonflower Trigger Sullivan. With this said I'm pretty familiar with the temperament and character of the bloodline which is of no difference to other reputable bloodlines. As explained before Moonflower bloodlines are being seen as conformation show dogs. Yes, it's obvious Lankakore is training the Bullies he owns for pulling and has labeled them as work dogs but I'm pretty sure they became work dogs the day he decided to train them for pulling competition. The offspring from the sire and dam are both from Moonflowers which will obviously produce puppies that project the same qualities notorious of Moonflower bloodlines. However, the new owner of the parents were trained to pull so are you saying this converted them into work dogs in which the offspring would project a whole new temperament and character which requires special consideration? In the event Nitro is considered in your eyes as a work dog than I'd have to say he is easier to train, less hyper, and less demanding in regard to discipline. If this is the case than I'd have to say a working dog would better suit a new owner unfamiliar with the breed vice a Bull Terrier coming from a non-reputable bloodline that may be very hyper, energetic, and stubborn. Please elaborate on specific examples of bloodlines that are considered to be "working dogs" and how their temperament, character, and personalities vary from the common Bull Terrier. I'd be anxious to see a specific Bull Terrier that requires so much caution that even a prior BT owner, knowledgable and experienced with the breed, may not have the capabilities to raise one or be offered to own one. I must be leading a sheltered life because in all the years of raising Bull Terriers I have yet meet this type of Bull Terrier. I'm hoping the term "working dog" isn't a nice phrase for "hyper" Bull Terrier with an abundance of true Terrier characteristics because if it does I've seen many of those just not in too many champion lines used in conformation shows like Moonflower.
- Steve Gogulski "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!" www.bulliesofnc.com
Before Maya I have owned and worked Labradors. Even before marrying my wife. Over the years all five of those labs would have been categorized as "working" dogs. I trained each of them myself to retrieve upland birds and waterfowl. Not a single one was a problem at all. Each of them lived in our home as members of the family, loving and licking and chasing tennis balls all over the house. Their bloodlines were impeccable and their temperament was perfect. Our last lab, Curly, was acquired shortly after Lizzie was born in 1994. He was as gentle with her as any dog I have ever seen be with a small child. There was no excitability, no threatening postures, nothing other than love for a little girl that quickly became his best friend. When home no one would ever know they were highly trained. But when it was time to work they were all business.
I too have been in contact with many other breeds of canine that were considered "Working Breeds." However, none of them required special consideration due to their differences. All were within proper and sound temperament. To be honest I think I'd be a bit distracted from any dog that required calculated consideration of ownership due to complexities within the particular bloodline. To me it sounds like one that requires a little more attention in regard to proper genetics where hardship to own and raise wouldn't be a challenge fit for only a select few that could deal with the differences.
- Steve Gogulski "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!" www.bulliesofnc.com
Because they keep referring to them as "working" dogs is why I mention working dogs.
a good working Bully has lots of drive-without drive they would not make good working dogs.
also, watching the videos of the puppies I see they are quite the handful and determined (all bullies are, of course but not to the degree most "good" working dogs do)
With working ability comes intelligence and drive, labs are naturally a biddable breed-meaning instincts tells them to listen to "master" and not work independently.
a working shepard,dobermon mallionois or bully are used to working independently and need a firm structured handler to keep all that drive and intellegnce under control with proper training.
Im friends with Cleo parker who, breeds specifically for show and agilty bullies- and she would not allow them to go to the average dog or bully owning home because her dogs are very smart and don't always use those smarts for good-if you know what I mean
Chimera I would say would deff be a good candidate as a working dog-even as a service dog or agility due to her drive, focus, easy motivation and energy level.
would I ever sell a dog like her to the average dog owner? NEVER.
reason being the sheer amount of time and work it takes to keep a dog like that properly trained and out of trouble.
im not saying working dogs are vicious or aggressive-they just need someone who is capable of shaping them properly and redirecting their drive and energy into working-as oppose to say eating the furniture or chasing wild life.
and, as with most lines-you get a mixture of couch potato bullies and terrier bullys and in between bullies. Pet bullies would be couch potatos and in-betweens-terrier types are more suited to agility or working.
the average family/owner walks there dogs for 1-2 hours per day, the average home keeps a dog in the crate for 6-8 hours per day while at work, the average family/ owner does basic obedience and then is done. the average owner wants a pet to snuggle up with on the couch or go for nice strolls around the block.
the average working home wants a dog to have the focus,drive and stamina to work for several hours
the average working home needs a dog who can keep focused to fnish a task that could last up to half an hour the average working home needs a dog who can "go big or go home" so to speak.
a pet bully in a working home would be useless-a working bullie in a pet home could be a nightmare because the average family is not capable of keeping a dog with that kind of drive entertained for more then a few hours out of every day. even I have some trouble keeping Chimera entertained and from finding her own 'entertainment"
Darn it, I wanted to see an example of a Working Bull Terrier or at least know of the bloodline. I know the terminology of a Working Dog but I just wanted to familiarize myself to what You consider is a born to be working dog. I think many that pen up a Bull Terrier for hours on end in a crate while they worked all day could quickly develop a working dog with super hyperness, energy, and drive. I'm just not too sure it would be a good thing. All Terrier breeds have drive or at least should. The amount of drive depends a lot on their bloodlines and how they are raised. With this said, I'm convinced most all Bull Terriers could be trained to be working dogs. However, I can't exactly say they'd require special consideration for ownership and I'm confident the puppies illustrated above would require far less training and attention than most American bred EBT's.
- Steve Gogulski "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!" www.bulliesofnc.com
Unless I'm missed something... I don't see any Moonflower in her pedigree.
What's cool is I do see some lines that are familiar from my research into Stoger's lineage.
I think these pups are beautiful. It's cool that this breeder posted here. Both Sire & Dam look to come from a long line of stunning Bullies.
I'd consider a pup from Hungary if the breeder checked out and wanted to roll the dice on a cargo hold puppy flight.
Anybody considering a pup should question the breeder on the animal's temperament. The breeder in turn should be looking to place each Baby-Bullie with a home that will be best suited, one of many things considered being temperament..
xCharity_Casex and Steve, have either of you seen a "working" Bullie in person? I haven't. Every EBT I've seen in person would rather be on a couch, opposed to doing anything that resembled work.
Our pup has A LOT of energy. But when he gets exercised (rake chasing in the yard or a long uphill hike). Once tired or bored, it's straight indoors and on the couch.
@Stoeger - Yes, I think you may have misread something. The reason the sire is named "Moonflower Kool Liberty" is because he comes from Moonflower Kennel. The reason the dam is named "CH Designed For Moonflower Dum Spiro" is because she comes from Moonflower kennel. As a matter of fact the Dams sire is "Moonflowers Trigger Sullivan" who is actually my Stud Nitro's sire as well. They are indeed from Moonflowers kennel so the name isn't misleading. If you click on that link you posted above look for the sires pedigree look at the where it says "Kennel:" I'm pretty sure it says Moonflower Kennel. I'm not easily fooled.
- Steve Gogulski "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!" www.bulliesofnc.com
@Stoeger... Must be those Private Label Brews and Nachos Supreme that you're serving up over there.... :-(( the only way to get our kids to lie still on the couch is to drain them physically!
In the beginning God created English Bull Terriers, in the image of EBT's, God created all other breeds.
Timar & Cosmopolitian being the respective kennels listed for each.
From what I can see both sire and dam were purchased by Moonflower Kennel. Then any offspring (including Kool Liberti) were badged Moonflower.
I do agree with you that this "working" Bullie Moonflower Kool Liberti doesn't come from a line of Bullies that were used exclusively to "work". Both sire & dam were show dogs from what I can see.
@Stoeger - You're confusing the heck out of me. I never referred Moonflower Kool Liberty as a female. You do realize ALL BT's originate from other bloodlines if you look further down their pedigree. Regardless of where each BT came from many generations ago these are Moonflower bloodline. I see Timar and Cosmopolitan on his pedigree which is the bloodline they came from. Those BT's could have in fact been owned by Moonflower who purchased them (or at least the female) to develop her own bloodline to carry the name Moonflower. It's no different than when we sell a puppy which will take on the name "Bullies of NC's...." regardless of owner. In any case these puppies are from Moonflower lines. I think they're gorgeous and I think the only reason there are some available is because of their location. The photo of Cool Liberti shows him pulling hard a leash. Yes he is ripped in the photo as though he's flexing. Some might look at that photo and say to themselves he hasn't been trained too well on a leash and others might say "He's a Working Dog." Oddly both parents were good on lead and no pulling like that was done in the show ring. Perhaps some of the members explaining the difficulties they're having walking their young BT's have working dogs.
- Steve Gogulski "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!" www.bulliesofnc.com
That's the problem, you refer to her as a male, she's a female. Not trying to confuse you. I'm stating that Kool Liberti IS a female and doesn't have a single relative with Moonflower in the registered name.
That's all
I think you were "easily fooled" by the breeder's cross image (in the very first post in this thread) that for some reason shows the female on the left and male on the right. Which is totally opposite of any other cross image I've seen.
Either way, both are beautiful examples of the breed, and both have been in the show ring. Kata Stief is the owner breeder of Lankák-Åre Kennel and all of her dogs are beautiful. She does weight pull competitions with her dogs, as well as show. Check out her Facebook page (Kata Stief Lankák-Åre Kennel), her pictures are amazing and all of her dogs look like they live the good life.
This is probably a dumb question, and feel free to ignore me if no one wants to answer, but what is all of this working dog stuff? Is it something any dog can be trained to do, or is this some sort of temperament that is genetically ingrained?
The puppies are beautiful and look very feisty and playful.
@ Steve- with breeds such as German shepards, where they have been breeding 2 separate types (working and pets) the blood line DOES make a difference.
since bullies have not been being bred for working purposes consistently-you basically go with a drivey bullie and breed to another drivey bullie and evaluate the litter from there.
but, with BTs you can deff have one or two pups from a pet litter be considerd working quality-and those pups should most certiantly be sold as such and never to a home of inexperienced or moderately experienced owners.
a drivey dog IMO is one with a high prey drive who is confedent. that combination can be a disaster to the inexperienced owner, when there 6 month old puppy is attempting to snag a hold of the neighbors 5 year old on her bicycle and they cannot get him to stop.
I think I'm starting to understand your definition of a "working dog" as you know it to be, which you mention to be a Bull Terrier with a so called "high drive." Your concern about a working dog with this characteristic is mentioned with an example of this type of BT snagging a kid on their bicycle. I'm starting to understand your opinion of a "Working Dog" which would be more or less a very active, hyper, and potentially dangerous Bull Terrier that requires constant supervision and control thus the reason why you mention this type of Bull Terrier requiring special consideration for ownership. Actually my take on a true "working dog" despite the breed type is a little different because I would classified the BT you described as one with a bad temperament and character not a working dog. Most all BT's have high drives and plenty of energy. However, their temperament is usually sound and reliable which remains the same for working dogs. The definition of a "Work Dog" - Any of various breeds of dogs developed or trained to do useful work, such as herding animals, pulling wagons or sleds, or guarding property. Try and understand that this does NOT mean that the temperament of all work dogs will result in aggressiveness to other animals, people, and children. I do not know of anyone breeding Bull Terriers with the deliberate intentions of creating dogs that possess negative temperaments consisting of aggression, uncontrollable energy, and negative behavior that requires constant supervision and then calling them "working dogs." However, there are those that will take a breed like the Bull Terrier (known already to be a working dog) and train them in specific work related areas where either their high energy, stamina, muscle, or determination can be fine tuned to become proficient in certain areas. In this particular case we're relating to the puppies from this litter coming from work dogs trained in pulling. Keep in mind that training a BT in this area shouldn't jeopardize their temperament by becoming a threat or possibly producing puppies that are now destined for unique individuals that are specialized in handling such wicked BT's. As you probably already know, Terriers in general fall into a "Work Dog" category. With this said you could consider all BT's to be a work dog. http://www.cesarsway.com/dog-training/discipline/Types-of-Working-Dogs Talk to some of the individuals who have owned German Shepards that were considered to be work dogs and ask them how their temperaments varied from other German Shepards and you may be surprised by those that explain how they may feel that their work dog would be considered more loyal, more intelligent, and more trust worthy. One that they may feel is more disciplined and well tuned but definitely not the loose cannon that would snag a kid off a bicycle. I totally agree with you by your statement in regard to bloodlines making a difference. However, the definition of a work dog by what you describe is that of BT in which most others refer to as a poorly bred and bad temperament BT that most steer clear of. Here's something to ponder on - Therapy dogs are "Work Dogs."
- Steve Gogulski "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!" www.bulliesofnc.com
@Stoeger - You're correct. The Breeding Chart was backwards and misleading. Regardless, the bloodlines of the puppies from this litter go back 3 generations with Moonflower Kennel and would be considered a huge part of their bloodline. Gorgeous puppies with great structure and conformation. Yes, the Dam of the litter was trained to pull sled weights and the sire was active in conformation shows but I see no reason what so ever about putting caution towards the temperament of the puppies based on owner of the Dam's desire to train Kool Liberty to pull weights.
- Steve Gogulski "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!" www.bulliesofnc.com
They use and breed bull terriers as hog dogs down in the south where aggression is want and is a good thing to have because if they didn't have the the dog would get beat up and killed by the hog so what your idea of a bad dog is look of people's idea of a good hunting dog so the the discussion go's both ways
@SpudsKaiser - You can train any dog to be aggressive and mean. We have idiots doing that all over the country with APBT's and other breeds.
So you know, you can also train a BT to become an excellent BT hog hunting dog without disrupting his other temperament towards people and other dogs. Hog dogs go out in packs and work together. A trained aggressive dog would only fight with the other dog and never find his way to the hog.
The photo below is an award winning BT who's sought after by many hog hunters in the hunting clubs in his area of Texas. He is the lead dog that can pin a hog faster and more efficiently than any other trained hog dog in the area.
His temperament and aggression you ask? Absolutely noteworthy. He lives with children, gets along with all other dogs, and enjoys as much attention from strangers as feasibly possible. Trained for aggression? - Absolutely not. Trained to hunt and Pin Hog? Absolutely, since the day he was received from us at the age of 8 weeks old. Is he considered a work dog? Of course, and he's doing a darn good job of it. Did this BT take particular caution with ownership due to his character, temperament, or bloodlines? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact his 5 litter mates are family pets living with children and other animals as normal as can be.
Basicaly an untrained Btutus and if I would have been ignorant enough to find his actions cute he would have been easily dangerous. So I understand high prey drive but I also know that a working dog is not nessasarily mean or of bad temperment. What I have learned is that bloodlines and tempermant of the sire and dame make a big difference.
Your actions speak so loudly I cannot hear your words.
I have no doubt in my mind that our sweet little Maya, properly trained, would "work" just as well as any so-called "working" EBT's. As Steve mentioned, any dog can be trained to be vicious and dangerous. That also applies to training them to work. Further, I do not consider a "hog dog" to be anything other than an EBT trained to do a job when called upon. When the job is over the dog returns to being the loving family pet. The notion that a working dog is always a working dog is kind of far fetched in my opinion.
I wouldn't say a good hunt dog is an aggressive dog. Hunt dogs are bred to have fearless nature and great stamina. Aggressive traits inherent in hunting breeds are typically bred out to enable a stable cooperative nature in a pack. The Dogo Argentino is the perfect example of this, they are also widely used for wild boar. I can see where you might be confused a bit about wanting aggression, but the only people who breed for aggression are the ones who game dogs with other dogs.
But I never said they are aggressive, Prey drive and Aggression are two very different things
Bull Terriers in general are terriers by nature-they are attracted to movement-but mostly sounds.
chasing down a child on a bike has nothing to do with aggression and everything to do with its natural instincts kicking in to chase and try to grab the movement.
that is something no breeder has been able to breed out-or ever will.
even Chihuahuas have prey drive and will chase movement-but at a lesser degree of some other dogs/breeds.
"Bull Terriers in general are terriers by nature-they are attracted to movement-but mostly sounds." I appreciate your thoughtfulness in teaching me a little about the breed. I must be doing something wrong then because I let mine have free roam and they are often left outside unattended and I have yet to see any of their instincts kick in and chase kids on bikes or any other moving object that passes by down the road. Currently I have two of them (somewhere) out in front of my house walking around and entertaining themselves. It's actually pretty rare that I even you a leash for my bullies. Those that have visited here can attest to my statement. I think a lot has to do with how they are raised and how they are trained. Will a Bull Terrier feel the need to chase a critter they see in the yard whether it be a squirrel, mouse, or fox? They certainly will. However, that's pretty common amongst most all breeds of canine especially terriers. Yes, no breeder can change the natural tendencies of a canine but they can breed to improve temperament which is appropriate for the families that will be raising them regardless if they are a "working dog" or an everyday average Bull Terrier. I guess what I'm failing to get across is the fact that all Bull Terriers should be bred with temperament in mind regardless if they're a working dog or not. There are no excuses for any breed of canine that's bred to be a working dog where serious consideration for ownership is warranted due to "Prey Drive" or whatever you would consider to be a major concern for the welfare of other people and animals. I'd hate for anyone to be reading this forum and get the wrong opinion about a litter of Bull Terrier puppies that came from a dam that was trained for pulling weights and a sire that came from a lineage of show dogs that might think these puppies couldn't be raised by an owner that devoted to properly raising a Bull Terrier with love and attention regardless of their familiarity with the breed. The success to a well trained and obedient BT is often contributed to the owners commitment to raise them properly and believe it or not they are often first time owners. I've been raising Bull Terriers for a long time Kim and although none of us will ever be "experts" I can at least stand with confidence and say I know the breed pretty well and it's not from studying them on the internet for a few years or interacting on social networks but spending years raising and training them. Once upon a time there was no internet and raising a dog came dog came down to commitment, love, and pride. People are still doing it today but I guess there will always be youngsters out there to correct us old timers who are need of schooling.
- Steve Gogulski "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!" www.bulliesofnc.com
Im not trying to "school" anyone steve, but there is a big reason that there are 2 separate lines of german shepards, labs, border collies,etc. one lines for pets-and one line for working.
its because a dog who has been breed to be a family pet is selectively bred for its high drive-while a pet is selectively bred for its lack there of.
just as each puppy from a litter should be evaluated and placed with the right family.
you should know better then anyone that the mildest bullie pup should go to the least active home, while the alpha pup should go to the most experienced home.
i should expect you wouldn't allow a laid back quiet and shy owner to take on the most domineering pup from a litter and hope for the best.
and i don't think your understanding what im saying-because you yourself, while trying to disagree with me-have been in fact agreeing with what im saying.
training has EVERYTHING to do with owning a working dog- put a working dog into a home with owners who don't know what they are doing or un able to do the training necessary-youll end up with a big ole mess (which is what ive been trying to explain-but obviously quite poorly)
i chalk the miscommunication to my typing skills-ive never been very good at explaining myself over the internet
Kim - You speak as if there's a huge difference in personalities of litter mates. Yes, they all have slight differences that define their individuality and character but if the breeder has complete familiarity with the bloodlines they're developing they will have a clear and concise prediction of the natural temperament, character, and energy level of the puppies born from a particular litter. I don't care what other breeders have told you in regard to "selecting picking puppies" at VERY young ages and placing them in proper homes based on their current temperaments and personalities. That makes no sense at all and would be completely impossible. I have experienced many litters and watched many Bull Terriers grow into old age. There were many puppies I thought would be high driven, stubborn, and hard to manage but the complete opposite resulted. Bloodlines pays a big part in the outcome of a BT's character when matured but so does the way the BT is raised and trained. Let me give you a good example. As a young puppy Sooner was the most evil puppy I seen in a long time. He would start trouble with all his siblings starting at 5 weeks of age. At 8 weeks old he would sound like a Tasmanian devil with rabies every time he played with his siblings. At times I would stop him from picking fights and pick him up in the air to scold him to stop his antics. I thought to myself, man this fellow may very well have some aggression issues that are showing up early. However, I knew it wasn't anything from his bloodlines and both parents possessed great temperaments. Sooners antics dissipated quickly as a puppy and he displayed more affection than the average BT. As an adult he is the gentlest male BT you'd ever meet. He greets every dog he meets with tail wagging at 100mph. He isn't the least bit hyper and uncontrollable. In all actuality he wouldn't have posed a problem for someone that raised him that only had familiarity with turtles. Kim I understand what you are saying in regard to working dogs and I know exactly what you're saying in regard to there being differences from one Bull Terrier to the next. However, I can assure you that litter mates won't differ in huge degree especially if the bloodlines are those which have a reputation for sound temperament. All BT's are considered to be working dogs and all BT's require training and obedience because there puppy stages are long and nerve wracking at times. There's really no such thing as a timid and mild mannered male BT puppy especially at around 6 months old. They're rebels for sure but manageable with training. Regardless of the individual puppy I ensure every potential puppy owners from our litters have knowledge on the breed, proper environment, and ample time to raise a Bull Terrier otherwise they're encouraged to purchase a cat. The puppies above come from good stock and their bloodlines are easily traceable back to 9 generations which is more than 99% of the BT's here in this country. Moonflower may only have produced 2 generations through their BT's but the bloodlines come from already known and recognized champions. The only people you will find trying to pretend as though they have some gift from God that enables them to defrinchiate the good and evil puppies in a litter are those that have either only had 1 or 2 litters in there life that only wish to put on an act as though they are some subject matter expert or those that clearly recognize there bloodline to be one of concern in regard to temperament and high strung personalities. Talk to a breeder that has a development of 3 generations or more within their own bloodline and ask them if they can stand with confidence on the temperament and character of a litter that hasn't even been born yet and I can promise you they will know precisely what to expect from the litter. Again, the future development can be impacted on the way the individual puppy is raised. Put any BT in the wrong hands where they are inappropriately raised and you're going to have a mess regardless of what you'd consider to be a working BT or docile BT. The puppies above are great examples of well bred Bull Terriers with bloodlines that concentrated in all aspects of the breed. They are actually the type of BT that would easier to raise than one from poor bloodlines coming from parents and grandparents that received minimal attention and appropriate breeding was never considered. I see many of these type of BT's today and many suffer from obsessive compulsive disorders. Sadly these disorders don't stop them from breeding and increasing the health problems within the breed. The problems and concerns you speak of aren't coming from the term "working dog" but from the term bad genetics. In the event you know of a certain BT bloodline that exemplifies the working dog terminology in a fashion where special consideration should be cautioned for ownership due to the temperament and personality their offspring please share with me so I have a better idea of why you have cautionary reserves for any dog that's considered a working dog in productive fields of work other than guard and attack objectives.
- Steve Gogulski "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!" www.bulliesofnc.com
You knew that Rufus was used as a therapy dog, right? This is a type of working dog. Again all Bull Terriers are "Working Dogs" which can be trained for many different types of work related functions. In most cases these work related functions require sound temperament and good behavior. No cautionary considerations are necessary for the ownership of their offspring due to their training in work related functions as bonafide Work Dogs.
- Steve Gogulski "It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!" www.bulliesofnc.com
Comments
Chronic sure looks nice too!
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
yes-good breeders do screen, however the average show/ pet breeder usually has no problems placing a puppy in the average home. a working dog would never be welcomed in your average family.
a working dog is better off with a single person or a couple who is VERY active, VERY dog savy as well as VERY advanced dog owner.
i doubt any of those puppies would do well in a home with a person who has never owned a bull terrier before, or even a home who has owned one or two other bull terriers.
even a person like me would have a difficult time owning a working dog pup and would probably not pass the cut
In the event Nitro is considered in your eyes as a work dog than I'd have to say he is easier to train, less hyper, and less demanding in regard to discipline. If this is the case than I'd have to say a working dog would better suit a new owner unfamiliar with the breed vice a Bull Terrier coming from a non-reputable bloodline that may be very hyper, energetic, and stubborn.
Please elaborate on specific examples of bloodlines that are considered to be "working dogs" and how their temperament, character, and personalities vary from the common Bull Terrier. I'd be anxious to see a specific Bull Terrier that requires so much caution that even a prior BT owner, knowledgable and experienced with the breed, may not have the capabilities to raise one or be offered to own one. I must be leading a sheltered life because in all the years of raising Bull Terriers I have yet meet this type of Bull Terrier. I'm hoping the term "working dog" isn't a nice phrase for "hyper" Bull Terrier with an abundance of true Terrier characteristics because if it does I've seen many of those just not in too many champion lines used in conformation shows like Moonflower.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
Because they keep referring to them as "working" dogs is why I mention working dogs.
a good working Bully has lots of drive-without drive they would not make good working dogs.
also, watching the videos of the puppies I see they are quite the handful and determined (all bullies are, of course but not to the degree most "good" working dogs do)
With working ability comes intelligence and drive, labs are naturally a biddable breed-meaning instincts tells them to listen to "master" and not work independently.
a working shepard,dobermon mallionois or bully are used to working independently and need a firm structured handler to keep all that drive and intellegnce under control with proper training.
Im friends with Cleo parker who, breeds specifically for show and agilty bullies- and she would not allow them to go to the average dog or bully owning home because her dogs are very smart and don't always use those smarts for good-if you know what I mean
Chimera I would say would deff be a good candidate as a working dog-even as a service dog or agility due to her drive, focus, easy motivation and energy level.
would I ever sell a dog like her to the average dog owner? NEVER.
reason being the sheer amount of time and work it takes to keep a dog like that properly trained and out of trouble.
im not saying working dogs are vicious or aggressive-they just need someone who is capable of shaping them properly and redirecting their drive and energy into working-as oppose to say eating the furniture or chasing wild life.
and, as with most lines-you get a mixture of couch potato bullies and terrier bullys and in between bullies. Pet bullies would be couch potatos and in-betweens-terrier types are more suited to agility or working.
the average family/owner walks there dogs for 1-2 hours per day, the average home keeps a dog in the crate for 6-8 hours per day while at work, the average family/ owner does basic obedience and then is done. the average owner wants a pet to snuggle up with on the couch or go for nice strolls around the block.
the average working home wants a dog to have the focus,drive and stamina to work for several hours
the average working home needs a dog who can keep focused to fnish a task that could last up to half an hour the average working home needs a dog who can "go big or go home" so to speak.
a pet bully in a working home would be useless-a working bullie in a pet home could be a nightmare because the average family is not capable of keeping a dog with that kind of drive entertained for more then a few hours out of every day. even I have some trouble keeping Chimera entertained and from finding her own 'entertainment"
All Terrier breeds have drive or at least should. The amount of drive depends a lot on their bloodlines and how they are raised. With this said, I'm convinced most all Bull Terriers could be trained to be working dogs. However, I can't exactly say they'd require special consideration for ownership and I'm confident the puppies illustrated above would require far less training and attention than most American bred EBT's.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
MOONFLOWER KOOL LIBERTI
http://ingrus.net/bull/en/details.php?id=4012&gens=9Unless I'm missed something... I don't see any Moonflower in her pedigree.
What's cool is I do see some lines that are familiar from my research into Stoger's lineage.
I think these pups are beautiful. It's cool that this breeder posted here. Both Sire & Dam look to come from a long line of stunning Bullies.
I'd consider a pup from Hungary if the breeder checked out and wanted to roll the dice on a cargo hold puppy flight.
Anybody considering a pup should question the breeder on the animal's temperament. The breeder in turn should be looking to place each Baby-Bullie with a home that will be best suited, one of many things considered being temperament..
xCharity_Casex and Steve, have either of you seen a "working" Bullie in person? I haven't. Every EBT I've seen in person would rather be on a couch, opposed to doing anything that resembled work.
Our pup has A LOT of energy. But when he gets exercised (rake chasing in the yard or a long uphill hike). Once tired or bored, it's straight indoors and on the couch.
I'm not easily fooled.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
But you have stated that she (Kool Liberti is a female, not a male as you have stated) comes from Moonflower blood-lines.
There isn't a single dog or bitch in her pedigree with the name Moonflower.
MOONFLOWER KOOL LIBERTI
Has the following Sire & dam
LEGENDARY LEON TIMAR
COSMOPOLITAN IT ISN'T MAGIC
Timar & Cosmopolitian being the respective kennels listed for each.From what I can see both sire and dam were purchased by Moonflower Kennel. Then any offspring (including Kool Liberti) were badged Moonflower.
I do agree with you that this "working" Bullie Moonflower Kool Liberti doesn't come from a line of Bullies that were used exclusively to "work". Both sire & dam were show dogs from what I can see.
Regardless of where each BT came from many generations ago these are Moonflower bloodline. I see Timar and Cosmopolitan on his pedigree which is the bloodline they came from. Those BT's could have in fact been owned by Moonflower who purchased them (or at least the female) to develop her own bloodline to carry the name Moonflower. It's no different than when we sell a puppy which will take on the name "Bullies of NC's...." regardless of owner.
In any case these puppies are from Moonflower lines. I think they're gorgeous and I think the only reason there are some available is because of their location.
The photo of Cool Liberti shows him pulling hard a leash. Yes he is ripped in the photo as though he's flexing. Some might look at that photo and say to themselves he hasn't been trained too well on a leash and others might say "He's a Working Dog." Oddly both parents were good on lead and no pulling like that was done in the show ring.
Perhaps some of the members explaining the difficulties they're having walking their young BT's have working dogs.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
That's all
I think you were "easily fooled" by the breeder's cross image (in the very first post in this thread) that for some reason shows the female on the left and male on the right. Which is totally opposite of any other cross image I've seen.
Lujza 8months
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iYsYZ1j2Vg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yixk2Jn_mrM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKeom1hWOik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxNw-0d55ZM
The puppies are beautiful and look very feisty and playful.
@ Steve- with breeds such as German shepards, where they have been breeding 2 separate types (working and pets) the blood line DOES make a difference.
since bullies have not been being bred for working purposes consistently-you basically go with a drivey bullie and breed to another drivey bullie and evaluate the litter from there.
but, with BTs you can deff have one or two pups from a pet litter be considerd working quality-and those pups should most certiantly be sold as such and never to a home of inexperienced or moderately experienced owners.
a drivey dog IMO is one with a high prey drive who is confedent. that combination can be a disaster to the inexperienced owner, when there 6 month old puppy is attempting to snag a hold of the neighbors 5 year old on her bicycle and they cannot get him to stop.
Actually my take on a true "working dog" despite the breed type is a little different because I would classified the BT you described as one with a bad temperament and character not a working dog. Most all BT's have high drives and plenty of energy. However, their temperament is usually sound and reliable which remains the same for working dogs. The definition of a "Work Dog" - Any of various breeds of dogs developed or trained to do useful work, such as herding animals, pulling wagons or sleds, or guarding property. Try and understand that this does NOT mean that the temperament of all work dogs will result in aggressiveness to other animals, people, and children. I do not know of anyone breeding Bull Terriers with the deliberate intentions of creating dogs that possess negative temperaments consisting of aggression, uncontrollable energy, and negative behavior that requires constant supervision and then calling them "working dogs." However, there are those that will take a breed like the Bull Terrier (known already to be a working dog) and train them in specific work related areas where either their high energy, stamina, muscle, or determination can be fine tuned to become proficient in certain areas. In this particular case we're relating to the puppies from this litter coming from work dogs trained in pulling. Keep in mind that training a BT in this area shouldn't jeopardize their temperament by becoming a threat or possibly producing puppies that are now destined for unique individuals that are specialized in handling such wicked BT's.
As you probably already know, Terriers in general fall into a "Work Dog" category. With this said you could consider all BT's to be a work dog. http://www.cesarsway.com/dog-training/discipline/Types-of-Working-Dogs
Talk to some of the individuals who have owned German Shepards that were considered to be work dogs and ask them how their temperaments varied from other German Shepards and you may be surprised by those that explain how they may feel that their work dog would be considered more loyal, more intelligent, and more trust worthy. One that they may feel is more disciplined and well tuned but definitely not the loose cannon that would snag a kid off a bicycle.
I totally agree with you by your statement in regard to bloodlines making a difference. However, the definition of a work dog by what you describe is that of BT in which most others refer to as a poorly bred and bad temperament BT that most steer clear of.
Here's something to ponder on - Therapy dogs are "Work Dogs."
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
So you know, you can also train a BT to become an excellent BT hog hunting dog without disrupting his other temperament towards people and other dogs. Hog dogs go out in packs and work together. A trained aggressive dog would only fight with the other dog and never find his way to the hog.
The photo below is an award winning BT who's sought after by many hog hunters in the hunting clubs in his area of Texas. He is the lead dog that can pin a hog faster and more efficiently than any other trained hog dog in the area.
His temperament and aggression you ask? Absolutely noteworthy. He lives with children, gets along with all other dogs, and enjoys as much attention from strangers as feasibly possible. Trained for aggression? - Absolutely not. Trained to hunt and Pin Hog? Absolutely, since the day he was received from us at the age of 8 weeks old. Is he considered a work dog? Of course, and he's doing a darn good job of it. Did this BT take particular caution with ownership due to his character, temperament, or bloodlines? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact his 5 litter mates are family pets living with children and other animals as normal as can be.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
California Indica
13weeks old
FOR SALE!
Chronic
FOR SALE!
Critical Mass
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
But I never said they are aggressive, Prey drive and Aggression are two very different things
Bull Terriers in general are terriers by nature-they are attracted to movement-but mostly sounds.
chasing down a child on a bike has nothing to do with aggression and everything to do with its natural instincts kicking in to chase and try to grab the movement.
that is something no breeder has been able to breed out-or ever will.
even Chihuahuas have prey drive and will chase movement-but at a lesser degree of some other dogs/breeds.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness in teaching me a little about the breed.
Will a Bull Terrier feel the need to chase a critter they see in the yard whether it be a squirrel, mouse, or fox? They certainly will. However, that's pretty common amongst most all breeds of canine especially terriers. Yes, no breeder can change the natural tendencies of a canine but they can breed to improve temperament which is appropriate for the families that will be raising them regardless if they are a "working dog" or an everyday average Bull Terrier.
I guess what I'm failing to get across is the fact that all Bull Terriers should be bred with temperament in mind regardless if they're a working dog or not. There are no excuses for any breed of canine that's bred to be a working dog where serious consideration for ownership is warranted due to "Prey Drive" or whatever you would consider to be a major concern for the welfare of other people and animals.
I'd hate for anyone to be reading this forum and get the wrong opinion about a litter of Bull Terrier puppies that came from a dam that was trained for pulling weights and a sire that came from a lineage of show dogs that might think these puppies couldn't be raised by an owner that devoted to properly raising a Bull Terrier with love and attention regardless of their familiarity with the breed. The success to a well trained and obedient BT is often contributed to the owners commitment to raise them properly and believe it or not they are often first time owners.
I've been raising Bull Terriers for a long time Kim and although none of us will ever be "experts" I can at least stand with confidence and say I know the breed pretty well and it's not from studying them on the internet for a few years or interacting on social networks but spending years raising and training them. Once upon a time there was no internet and raising a dog came dog came down to commitment, love, and pride. People are still doing it today but I guess there will always be youngsters out there to correct us old timers who are need of schooling.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
Chem Valley Kush
owner:Moonflower kennel
:-bd
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
Im not trying to "school" anyone steve, but there is a big reason that there are 2 separate lines of german shepards, labs, border collies,etc. one lines for pets-and one line for working.
its because a dog who has been breed to be a family pet is selectively bred for its high drive-while a pet is selectively bred for its lack there of.
just as each puppy from a litter should be evaluated and placed with the right family.
you should know better then anyone that the mildest bullie pup should go to the least active home, while the alpha pup should go to the most experienced home.
i should expect you wouldn't allow a laid back quiet and shy owner to take on the most domineering pup from a litter and hope for the best.
and i don't think your understanding what im saying-because you yourself, while trying to disagree with me-have been in fact agreeing with what im saying.
training has EVERYTHING to do with owning a working dog- put a working dog into a home with owners who don't know what they are doing or un able to do the training necessary-youll end up with a big ole mess (which is what ive been trying to explain-but obviously quite poorly)
i chalk the miscommunication to my typing skills-ive never been very good at explaining myself over the internet
Let me give you a good example. As a young puppy Sooner was the most evil puppy I seen in a long time. He would start trouble with all his siblings starting at 5 weeks of age. At 8 weeks old he would sound like a Tasmanian devil with rabies every time he played with his siblings. At times I would stop him from picking fights and pick him up in the air to scold him to stop his antics. I thought to myself, man this fellow may very well have some aggression issues that are showing up early. However, I knew it wasn't anything from his bloodlines and both parents possessed great temperaments.
Sooners antics dissipated quickly as a puppy and he displayed more affection than the average BT. As an adult he is the gentlest male BT you'd ever meet. He greets every dog he meets with tail wagging at 100mph. He isn't the least bit hyper and uncontrollable. In all actuality he wouldn't have posed a problem for someone that raised him that only had familiarity with turtles.
Kim I understand what you are saying in regard to working dogs and I know exactly what you're saying in regard to there being differences from one Bull Terrier to the next. However, I can assure you that litter mates won't differ in huge degree especially if the bloodlines are those which have a reputation for sound temperament.
All BT's are considered to be working dogs and all BT's require training and obedience because there puppy stages are long and nerve wracking at times. There's really no such thing as a timid and mild mannered male BT puppy especially at around 6 months old. They're rebels for sure but manageable with training. Regardless of the individual puppy I ensure every potential puppy owners from our litters have knowledge on the breed, proper environment, and ample time to raise a Bull Terrier otherwise they're encouraged to purchase a cat.
The puppies above come from good stock and their bloodlines are easily traceable back to 9 generations which is more than 99% of the BT's here in this country. Moonflower may only have produced 2 generations through their BT's but the bloodlines come from already known and recognized champions.
The only people you will find trying to pretend as though they have some gift from God that enables them to defrinchiate the good and evil puppies in a litter are those that have either only had 1 or 2 litters in there life that only wish to put on an act as though they are some subject matter expert or those that clearly recognize there bloodline to be one of concern in regard to temperament and high strung personalities. Talk to a breeder that has a development of 3 generations or more within their own bloodline and ask them if they can stand with confidence on the temperament and character of a litter that hasn't even been born yet and I can promise you they will know precisely what to expect from the litter. Again, the future development can be impacted on the way the individual puppy is raised.
Put any BT in the wrong hands where they are inappropriately raised and you're going to have a mess regardless of what you'd consider to be a working BT or docile BT.
The puppies above are great examples of well bred Bull Terriers with bloodlines that concentrated in all aspects of the breed. They are actually the type of BT that would easier to raise than one from poor bloodlines coming from parents and grandparents that received minimal attention and appropriate breeding was never considered. I see many of these type of BT's today and many suffer from obsessive compulsive disorders. Sadly these disorders don't stop them from breeding and increasing the health problems within the breed. The problems and concerns you speak of aren't coming from the term "working dog" but from the term bad genetics. In the event you know of a certain BT bloodline that exemplifies the working dog terminology in a fashion where special consideration should be cautioned for ownership due to the temperament and personality their offspring please share with me so I have a better idea of why you have cautionary reserves for any dog that's considered a working dog in productive fields of work other than guard and attack objectives.
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
"It's not just a Dog, it's a Bull Terrier!"
www.bulliesofnc.com
Rufus is pretty but he got more of fat show dog type body then a work dog type body