Thoughts on Pet Insurance

Boyda

Was wondering if anyone has pet insurance for their pups. I was looking into it, and still on the fence if I should make that investment. It seems as if most just cover accidents. Would like some input pretty please!

Trent

I have my bullies on the wellness plans at Banfield animal hospital. It covers all vaccinations,10% off meds, free office visits and a complete exam every year. But the price really doesnt jusitify having it. I am in the process of phasing it out. The only time it helps is when something out of the ordinary happens. but you have to pay the vet first then wait for reimbursment from insurance.

Boyda

Wow, that whole reimbursement thing is not something I'd want to jump hoops through. Good info, thanks!

philsergeant

We are in a lawsuit with Banfield right now.... I know one can't measure all by the performance of one (outlet) ... but I believe the structure they have, of "group" vets, where you don't get a particular one whom you can grow to trust, leaves you open to having your pet handled/ operated upon by someone who possibly wasn't competent enough to run their own practice and takes a part time job at Banfield... we had a DISASTROUS experience with them, and struggle to cancel the agreement.... I believe their strongest point is their legal department, not the veterinary one.

BulliesofNC

Phil your not alone. many of the Vets in my area are incompetent as well. They all know how to administer vaccinations and encourage every dog and cat that walks the face of the earth to be neutered or spayed. I seriously visited every Veternarian office around my area. The one I use now is decent but when it comes to specific tests and procedures I commit to a 4 hour round trip to Raleigh's Veternarian School at UNC. They are absolutely the best.
The other day I was forced to go to the emergency clinic after hours because Sabre had her second puppy stuck. I called and told them I would be there ASAP and hoped they would be ready for her. I knew the puppy was still alive but if left there in its current position for much longer it wouldn't. Normally my wife can reach the puppy and guide it out with her small hands during the contractions. However, this puppy was very big and coming out breach which makes it harder to get a hold of.
Anyhow I hauled Butt to the emergency clinic on Sunday. The receptionist must have known I was coming in also because she said, "Is this Sabre? OK, well I need you to fill out some forms." I was like my wife can fill out the forms, I need a c-section right now. She said well you're going to have to wait until the doctor comes out. My patience grew thin after 10 minutes as I listened to Sabre contract and whine in pain while laying on the waiting room floor. I told the receptionist I needed to see the doctor now because I feared for the life of Sabre and her puppies. The receptionist stormed off angry. She then came back and said follow me to a room. Once I got in the room she left again as I stood there holding Sabre. A minute later the Vet stormed in and immediately said "Listen I'm going to take care of your dog but you better stop being an ASS to my tech." I was shocked and replied saying I'm not being an ass at all... She interrupted me and said my Vet said you almost had her in tears. I then had to tell her to just please conduct the c-section. She immediately continued and said "First of all my concern is with Sabre not the puppies, and I'm not going to do a c-section until I thoroughly examine her." After her exam she looked at me and said "One of the puppies is stuck and she needs to have a c-section." I bit my lip on allowing myself to say "No Shit." I asked her if it would be ok for either my wife or myself to be present during the surgery so we could properly care for the puppies after they were taken out. She said "NO, I'll have my Tech bring you the puppies."
About 20 minutes later in walks the Tech with 4 puppies, all with their tongues hanging out and barely breathing. The Tech walked out of the room and my wife and I began clearing the water from their mouths and lungs. 2 of the puppies were turning white face and losing blood flow. We both worked hard to save one of them which we got breathing. However, by the time I got to the big brindle (the one that was stuck) he had already passed. I took about 3 of the rubber gloves on the counter and started filling them with hot water and tied them off. I placed the 3 puppies in a large towel and set them down on the warm ballooned gloves. A little while later in walks the Tech asking how the puppies were doing. I told her we lost one and she then grabbed the puppy and said "Well the Vet is almost done stitching up Sabre so I'll have her take a look at him." I guess my opinion of a deceased puppy wasn't taken with complete trust.
By the time Sabre came out I was so happy just to see her and the only thing I could think about was paying the $1500 bill and getting her and her puppies on out of there. I couldn't help to notice the large butchered job they called stitches. Geez, couldn't even cut a straight line or stitch it back on with care and pride. Utterly disappointing and unsatisfactory.
On a positive note Sabre, the 3 puppies born from c-section, and the one puppy born naturally are all doing excellent.
No Phil, I'm not too thrilled with the Vets around here either!

[Deleted User]

@steve I've been really considering insurance until I read this thread

BulliesofNC

No don't let me talk you out of it. Sabres c-section was very expensive. I have no idea what they cover in regard to insurance on a procedure like that. All I know is that I do my best to take the best care of my bullies as possible so they stay out of the Vets office. I don't think the insurance would cover the elements that I visit a Vet for such as invetro A.I, sperm counts, BAER and other genetic Health Tests, Blood Tests, etc. 
My normal Vet I use for vaccinations is a real nice guy but he's not into anything other than normal procedures. The first day I went to him as I was hoping from one Vet to another in hopes of finding a really good Vet I asked him "Do you conduct BAER Testing?" He said "Never heard of it." I told him what it was and he said you should be able to clap your hands and determine if a puppy can hear you or not so there's really no need for a detailed test. He then went on to say he's been to many Vet medical classes and meetings each year and never heard of a BAER test.
I'm confident that the normal expenses required for the proper medical attention don't equate to the annual charges of the insurance. I could be wrong but I've heard from others that it's a money making scheme with loop holes. Maybe Trent from Blitzkrieg Bullies could shed some light on the costs, savings, or opposite.

[Deleted User]

Yes @trent it would be nice to hear your input

Boyda

Holy hell.... I'm so sorry for your expericance with Sabre! I don't think I would have been able to hold my tongue in a situation like that. I have mixed feelings about my current vet, he is really nice, but that's about it. I'm currently in the search for a new one, after a situation that really pissed me off. That's why I was looking into the insurance, it sounds good, but there are some loopholes in their plans and I just wanted some feedback from anyone who might have it or has had it.

Xtracho

We have Maya insured with Healthypaws Insurance. We choose her vet without any restrictions. It does not cover wellness and vaccinations because that is something we all do for our beloved bullies anyhow. It is unlmited coverage with no cap on payouts. Her coverage includes, accidents, injuries, emergencies, and surgery...among other things. We chose 90% reimbursement with a $500 deductible. Our premiums are less than $25/month. Although we have not, thank God, had to use the insurance yet. We are comfortable with it and it has been rated #1 for many years running. We did our research and chose this company for our peace of mind.

And with regard to reimbursement...I would much rather wait on it than be out of pocket totally.

bad

Poor Sabre, that's some awful vet care!

I also have a distaste for banfield practices. I've heard some true horror stories about dogs( and I mean excessive numbers at the same location) dying or becoming severely ill after very routine surgeries. I've also seen someone who was charged $500+ for procedures that they had not even been contacted to "ok"- all the owner had done is drop off the dog for shots and a check up. I'm not saying every vet at this company is bad, but many just care about their pockets and I've seen little good from them.

I recently was looking into pet insurance, however it seems all the insurances I've looked at do not cover anything to do with breeding (so no coverage for emergency C-sec) or congenital defects your dog may have. They seem to be best for either preventative care and some emergency situations.

Xtracho

Sorry, but my insurance also covers congenital and hereditary problems, diagnostic testing, hospitalization, and prescription medications. Anecdotal incidents with a particular company is no reason to condemn all of them.

Stoeger

Stoges_mom asked about BAER while at our vet. They said the closest place that conducts BAER testing is in Syracuse... I did a little research and discovered that they conduct the test at Cornell University (Ithaca, NY, southwest of Syracuse) I guess we should just be happy they knew what test we were asking about, ha! Never considered pet insurance. $300/year seems cheap to cover 90% of what Xtracho mentions being covered. But after a $500 deductible... I'd rather keep the cash in my hand and drop it if and when the dog's health warranted attention. I can imagine a bad vet poking a dog like a pin cushion knowing insurance is footing the bill, diagnosing all sorts of "problems" and "treating" his wallet.

Steve, I'm glad to hear Sabre and surviving pups are doing well despite the hack job. What a shame the stuck-pup was lost. It sounds like there was a possibility it might have had a better chance if the vet had a sense of urgency and you were allowed to be present to assist 

Xtracho

Fortunately we have a competent vet only a few minutes from our house. I´m not inclined to be out of pocket 2-3-4 grand when I know I can get 90% of it back for only $25/month. Using that logic we should all drop our health insurance and ``hope for the best´´. IMO a $500 deductible is a pittance compared to what the total out of pocket could be without the insurance. And you can choose a lower deductible and even go with 80% reimbursement if you wish. We chose the higher deductible just as I have a high deductible on our vehicle insurance also.

BulliesofNC

Mark I think your insurance provider is a reputable one compared to some of the others with a lot more stipulations. $25 a month isn't bad at all. It's too bad though that it didn't cover all medical needs to include standard vaccinations and wellness. I'm glad my personal medical and dental insurance didn't have that same mentality. Personally I think $25 a month is a good deal. However, with a $500 deductable and no coverage for the the basic things that are medically required I'm not too sure. With a $300 annual fee along with a $500 deductible I'd have to be confident that the investment would be a good peace of mind for a situation in which a very costly surgery was required in the future. 

Xtracho

I´m sure we could find a policy to cover things like vaccinations, exams, dental, etc. But the premiums would be much higher. But again, those are things we all do for our dogs anyhow. It is part of being a responsible pet parent. To me, it is a risk vs reward scenario. An emergency C-Section was something that was not foretold nor expected. However, it would have been covered at 90% less the deductible, with the insurance we have for Maya. Remember the Facebook story about the little bullie that fell off the deck and broke both front legs and the ball joint in her hip? That little one´s parent had to sell off personal belongings and beg for donations in order to cover a 5K surgery bill. Had she had this insurance her total cash outlay would have been $950.00.

I can understand one´s desire not to carry insurance from an economic perspective. We weighed that against what the possible impact would be financially should something happen and found the relatively small premiums much more manageable on a monthly basis vs. a huge payout for an emergency surgery.

BulliesofNC

Nothing wrong with that at all. With this breed let's face it they can get themselves into mischief and require medical attention. That person's BT that fell off the second floor balcony was a good example.

Stoeger

Comparing human and pet insurance is a bit of a stretch... lol.

I guess I have a different mentality because my capital is constantly working for me.

My upfront (waiting on reimbursement), premium and deductible costs would be invested elsewhere compounding my investment over and over many times while I'm "hoping for the best" with my well cared for pet's health.

My investments are sure things, being careless and letting Stoeger launch himself off a balcony has a slightly lower chance of happening.

If we are going to use the "I think I can fly puppy" example... I'd set up a facebook and beg for donations before pet insurance. After begging and pleading for help, the owner came out of pocket close to what she would have to do with insurance. Probably with less hassle than dealing with an insurance company. Oh and if she had pet insurance, she would have to have this outstanding, number one rated company you found. If not, would the story be much the same!?!?

So far it sounds like your insurance company has been very good at taking your money (they're investing it btw), lemme know when you actually have a claim. Your argument will have much more validity when you have a reimbursement check in your hand.

Stoeger

Here are some mixed reviews on HealthyPaws Insurance...

http://www.yelp.com/biz/healthy-paws-pet-insurance-and-foundation-bellevue-2

Keep in mind that most people generally write a review to complain, so most, over the top rave reviews can be discounted as phoney and written by an employee.

Xtracho

How is it a stretch to compare human insurance to pet insurance? The policies are virtually the same. You can buy health insurance to cover wellness, preventive, physical exams, etc. Or, you can purchase bare bones insurance that covers only emergencies, injury, surgery, etc. Each has its own $$$ amount of deductible and co-pay. In fact, I would say that insurance for pets was very much modeled after the health insurance we carry for ourselves.

The assumption that I don't let my $$$ work for me? Now, that's a stretch. In fact, I'm able to absorb a $25/month premium and a $500 deductible should the need arise. My investments have been successful enough to allow that. And unless you're 100% in government secured bonds or Money Market instruments with a whopping 2.5% APR your investments are far from a sure thing. And FYI...she came out of pocket to the tune of about $2000 for the surgery. The ancillary care and follow up is still yet to be paid for. My mention of that case was merely as an example, confirmed by Steve's post above, that this breed has a mischievous side that can sometimes result in such events occurring. And the suggestion that she does not care properly for her bullies is just plain false.

As I mentioned in an earlier post. I can understand the reasoning behind eschewing insurance for pets. No problem with that.

The inference that I don't know what an insurance company does with my premium payments? Well...a big LOL to you. Don't assume my naivete at that please. In fact, you infer several things in your post that simply are not anywhere near to being correct. Sarcasm also doesn't come across too well in the virtual world.

Yelp? Are you really serious? That's your source for ratings? Do you consult them as well for your "sure" investments? They, like TripAdvisor and other sites, exist as gossip columns. Just call me a touchy-feely kind of guy. One that has to see for himself. I could relate stories that debunk gossip sites like Yelp, but that would be considered verbose. But you did offer one tidbit of truth about sites like that. They exist for the whiners out there who are much more inclined to write, and embellish to their benefit, of the horrors they experienced with whatever entity they decide to lambast. But some people believe if it's on the internet it's gotta be the God's Honest Truth.

And as far as my argument goes. Yup, we will see....or hopefully not. Simply put, we see pet insurance as good for us and for Maya. For others that decide not to carry such insurance? I think I covered that in an earlier post. It's great that it exists for those of us, like me, who are more flippant with their hard earned money and not smart enough to care for it like others. <sarcasm font off>

philsergeant

Steve, I feel for that horrid experience and wish you the best for Saber and the rest of the litter... All the physical contortions that you go through, including wrenching out a fat check, dealing with incompetent staff, are zero by comparison with the emotional trauma you have when experiencing loved creatures in strife. I could go on here for pages with our many years experience with dogs health, loved creatures passing and vets.... But, for the most part they are pretty darn useless.... I get sick to my stomach when I hear neighbours raving about how wonderful their vets are, when they have only been in for annual checkups and as soon as a health issue comes up that will cost $2000, their attitude is "Heck, I only paid $300 for him, put him down"... this happens more than you would like to believe.
Stoeger, I agree whole heartedly! Solid thought.
If there WERE a policy that cost $25.00 a month per dog and actually covered anything worthwhile I'd pay it in a heartbeat... hell, our dogs chew $25.00 worth of Bully Sticks in a week!
Veterinarians are 80% business and 20% skill.... At the passing of our last girl we spend over $8000 in 3 weeks from the first trip to the emergency to the local vet, to our original (most trustyworth) vet 85 miles away, to the giant corporate surgery center, none could save her, although, I believe she could have been saved if ANY of them knew what they were doing. So, when desperate care is needed fast, like with Steve's Saber, I hope you all have somewhere competent to go, and don't find out the reality of performance out there when a loved one's life is on the line.

Stoeger

I'm sorry you took all of that so personal Xtracho.

My investments routinely return 50%, 75% and 100% and turn within 30 days.

Like I said, my mentality is different than others and so are my investments.

Some of the product I sell are of the insurance or warranty type. Large profit is derived through the cost of the premium (which is due up front, no monthly payments) and the game is on when a claim rolls in.

Luckily, I'm only a middle man with those products. The customer and insurance company battle it out from there.

Like I said, until you have a claim reimbursement check in hand.... You're just "hoping for the best".

Xtracho

LIke I said, and some seem to doubt, there IS a policy that has premiums of $25/month and covers what I consider to be worthwhile events. Suggesting that I am being less than truthful about the premium we pay for the coverage offered is just p****ing into the wind.

And how was I not to take such comments personally when they bring into question my judgment on choosing to insure her? Again, don´t want to insure your pet...fine with me...as I said and will say again....I have no problem with that. But chest thumping and slapping yourself on the back because you think your decision not to vs. my decision to insure her is better....well....yeah...I take that personally.

Stoeger

The thread title is "Thoughts On Pet Insurance"...

I in no way have directed you in how to care for your beautiful girl, no need, you're doing a wonderful job.

But for you to slap an insurance company on the back and thump your chest with how great pet insurance is without having filed a claim is a bit preposterous.

Xtracho

I merely stated that the company has been rated #1 for quite some time. I don´t recall slapping them on the back, nor thumping my chest at how great it is. If that is in error please post my comments as quotes. For our peace of mind, yes I do think it is a good deal and that we chose a company that will perform per the bilateral contract we entered into when we took out the policy. If I ever have to use it, and am anything other than pleased, then I will be the first to step up and say so.

I have offered my thoughts on it and been met with nothing more than comments that questioned my judgment on doing so and doubts as to the veracity of the premiums we pay for the coverage we selected. Anecdotal cases can be made for either side of the coin.

I did not opine nor comment on anyone´s decision not to carry pet insurance. My comments were simply relating our reasoning for covering her.

BTW....yeah....Maya is something special for sure and we care for her that way.

BulliesofNC

I think we all care for our Bullies with intense pride and passion. Nothing wrong with having different opinions on health coverage. I don't think anyone was trying to be mean or cast judgement on someone's personal decision making skills or ethics.
I think there's Pro's and Con's to both aspects of paying for insurance vice out of pocket payment. I think I made myself clear on being neutral on this subject and based on the opinions provided by both sides there's enough information for others to make a intelligent decision on whether or not they wish to carry pet insurance for their beloved Bull Terrier.
I don't think this needs to turn into a debate and I don't think anyone had any intentions of  criticizing someone's decisions on what is best for their dog. The best decision will always be the one that the owner feels most comfortable with.

Leslie

@Steve, I am absolutly horrified at your experience. I assume they thought you to be a byb but in respect for the dog as well as you since they didn't know the difference apparently I find myself completly revolted. Shear ignorance on their part and a puppy was lost. I would have been hard pressed to tell them to shove their paperwork in their ass till my dog whom was in pain and a puppy at steak was properly cared for. People suck. Any vet that can't cut a straight line under pressure needs a new job. This sucks. And unfortunatly all to common :-q I hope mommy and puppies are well give them a big kiss for me.

Trent

I don't think the wellness plan is worth it, it over the years has covered less and less. I spoke with vpi insurance and they really pushed for prior cfonditions. I really don't thenk it's worth the monthly cost.

bullygrumpus

@Xtracho

- agree with your desire to make sure Maya is cared for in a special way.

Kiko is signed up for TruPanion since we got her.  http://trupanion.com/

We have the basic plan - one never knows what a bully might ingest or get themselves into.

pgreid

As a European member (!!), I have to say that my experience has been very positive regarding the insurance we had taken out for Bikkel.  I can honestly say that in the 7 years we owned him, the insurance paid for itself every year (our premiums were around 40 dollars a month, with zero excess).  Ironically enough, it is only now that we have hit a problem.  Just before Bikkel was put to sleep, our vet referred him to a university clinic as he did not have the equipment to carry our any more detailed tests.  We live in the Netherlands and the clinic is just over the border in Belgium.  The treatment and care we got from both were fantastic, but now the insurance company has rejected the final claim (apart from the costs of the euthanasia injection funnily enough!) because we did not go to their only approved clinic in Belgium, which is approximately 120 miles away!  So we are currently about 3000 dollars out of pocket.
However, our vet has sent them a STINKING letter on our behalf, pointing out that what they are saying in effect is that we should have driven a very sick dog for over an hour just to fit their approved list.  On top of that, he has stated that if they do not pay the claim, he will remove all their literature from his practice and actively warn customer NOT to register their animals with them.
I am old enough and wise enough to know that the chances of them reversing their decision are small – but I have to take my hat off to the vet for what he has done for us.  We are so lucky that we have a vet who grew up with Bull Terriers and truly loved BIkkel – the only time I have ever heard vet get emotional was when I called him to let him know that Bikkel had gone.
@Bulliesof NC what a horrendous experience with Sabre – my blood was boiling at ever sentence.  But good to hear that she is doing well now.
PS Insurance company for any Dutch/Belgian members is Proteq

BulliesofNC

.

Boyda

Touché, Steve! Touché! )

apollosmama

All I have to say is..... the US Military and their families have the original OBAMACARE! That is all! )

Stoeger

It's getting increasingly harder to watch this joke of an administration fumble it's way through it's final term.

How has this fraud not been impeached yet?

Seon

Wow, thread turned political.

pgreid sorry for your loss.

BulliesofNC

Actually I never said a word in regard to politics. Rocky is to blame.

Leslie

)

philsergeant

What doesn't turn political these days.... politicians of all stripe are ruining the entire world.... and we are the dumb idiots allowing it.... the old expression goes.... You get the government you deserve.
If it wasn't for Bullies there would be little to live for anymore, n'est-ce pas?

Titan626

Hey Boyda, I know I’m late to the party here but I’m going to post this reply anyways so anyone reading this forum can use what I’ve learned too. I've started researching pet insurance for Titan and I’ll share what I’ve learned so far. Regarding your comment about most plans only covering accidents, the lower-end plans do offer an accident or accident & illness option but the top plans like Healthy Paws, Trupanion, Embrace and Petplan all offer comprehensive coverage that pretty much protects against all health problems, accidents and some offer wellness add-ons too.  

Titan is almost as prone to injuring himself as I am but accident only coverage is out of the question because since he’s a Bull Terrier he’s at risk for genetic health problems like kidney disease, heart disease, deafness, patella luxation, skin and fur issues and more. These issues are not cheap to treat and in the case of chronic heart or kidney disease you’re potentially looking at lifetime treatment costs. 


So IMO don’t bother with companies that exclude hereditary and congenital health issues. I know 2 out of 3 Nationwide (used to be VPI) plans don’t really cover the genetic stuff and petpremium and aspca plans are the same. I think those companies offer one plan that’s more comprehensive but overall the customer reviews on those 3 are pretty discouraging. 

Here in the states, I've found that Healthy Paws, Trupanion, Embrace and PetPlan are among the best when it comes to purebreds like Bull Terriers  

Depending on where you’re located I can probably point you to a few companies worth checking out. 

Here's some resources that I've been looking at, again many of these are only in the states but others like Petplan and Healthy Paws have coverage that extends to the UK and Canada, respectively. Feel free to send me a private message too.



http://www.thebullterrierclub.org/ownership/health-issues/
http://files.dvm360.com/alfresco_images/DVM360/2013/10/27/51ecfb27-256b-49ff-98ab-8b7a8810ea4e/article-808464.pdf
https://www.petinsuranceu.com/dog-insurance/

Tirednemotional

Thankfully in the UK we don't seem to have all these problems regarding Pet Insurance. Although you need to be careful to select the right cover. I would now never not insure my dog considering just how much a lifelong condition can cost in vet fees. By the time my previous Bully was 10 we were spending about £200 pounds a month for her tablets and that was just the excess on her claim. The only medication which gave her relief from her allergies cost £5.00 a tablet so the cost mounted up and without insurance we wouldn't have been able to afford it. Harley's current insurance provides lifelong cover for any condition, up to £4000 a year per condition, cover for loss e.g. paying for advertising reward etc and legal cover should Harley get me involved in litigation. All this for under £12 a month. They also donate a proportion of their profits to pet charities and pay vets direct. Saying that for the same cover my previous insurers quoted me £72 a month for no extra benefits. It sounds like insurance for your guys is a complete headache

giovitas

Here, in Perú (South America), there are not such things as pet insurance. There is a private company thinking in developing one but nothing yet. Well if human health insurance are expensive, I can't imagine how expensive is going to be the insurance for pets.

I read the entire conversation and kept me thinking of the quality of veterinarians around here, and mainly they're promoted by mouth to mouth. The average cost of vaccinations are like 15 to 20 dollars. I spent like 10 dollars each month for the antiflees pipett, 5 dollars for deparasitation (sorry if its not the correct word), and 10 dollars for bath, nail clipping. The price for consultation is 10 dollars, and we pay for the medicine. Just in my neighborhood there are like 10 veterinarians/pet stores/pet spa (yes, they do everything).

I know that bigger procedures cost a lot more. And unfortunately, there
are not that much specialist here. I know someone who spend 1000
dollars, his dog spent 20 days in the clinic before passing away, had two blood
transfussions, blood exams every three days, and ecographies. Sadly,
there was nothing it can be done for the dog as she accidentally ate
human medicines and wasn't treated in time. The cost for spaying are around 40 to 80 dollars, it depends. Don't know the cost around the globe.

I don't think that many people are interested in taking a pet insurance, maybe is a cultural thing, as not everyone have a private health insurace (the government health insurance is terrible you can die before you get an appointment or a bed in the emergency room). So if one not invest in themselves I don't think they're going to invest in their pets. There is no prevention culture here.

On the other hand, there are beautiful initiative that give attention to abandoned dogs and the dogs of poor people who doesn't have the money or the knowledge to vaccinate or treat their pets, there are spaying campains at social cost (5 soles, which are like 2 dollars), and vaccinations campains (rabies) at no cost. And some veterinarians give "social cost" for rescued dogs, so there are alternative if you don't have the resources (not a lot, but you can try).

We're progressing in terms of animal care. This year the law for pet mistreatment was approved, so a person who mistreated or abandon a pet could be in jail for four years. On the other hand, we still have bull-fighting and rooster-fighting, so the two sides of the coin. Sorry, I think I'm going out of subject.

Well, this is the view from someone from a country without pet insurance, you guys are lucky to have some options.