Bull Terrier Head

sara_nala

I found this image on facebook and was interested in it and found a link about it. http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm was wondering if anyone has done any research on this. I know this site talks down a lot on what breeding for apperance and what it has done to the bull terrier.
 I was wondering  how much truth is in what this man says. I am new to this breed and just thought it would be an interesting topic to bring up here. I know there is a wealth of knowledge behind each breeder. Has anyone read the book he is talking about? Thanks
Sara



 

BulliesofNC

I've read this article before a while back. There is a certain amount of truth to what this author says in regard to the appearnance changes within the EBT. However, there are many who are going to critize the changes in appearance if it's not to their liking.

Yes, the overall structure of the bull terrier has changed over the years much like many other canine breeds have. This author puts down the way the bull terrier has changed over the years by mentioning the original reasons the dog was bred for. It was probably great to have a dog chase down rats back in the day but in today's world people may not have a need for that.   

Years back the interest in breeding these dogs were for "Pit" purposes, herding, and rat catching. Although famers still benefit from assistance with herding in today's world it's been well established which specific breeds are the most beneficial for this practice and the EBT isn't the top choice.

I realize this author is adament on how he feels the changes to the EBT over the years aren't to his likings. However, what he fails to bring light to is the fact that when we go back many years to when he respected the EBT for its appearance as well as its hunting capabilities most all dogs were pets that were kept outside vice inside as loving members of the family. Back in the early days many of the EBT's were deaf and almost all were dog aggressive and very high strung. I imagine this didn't faze the owners and breeders of the EBT's since they were still capable of doing what they were bred to do. If this dog was chasing its tail back behind the barn all day they may not have cared so much since it was just a dog keeping busy. Try taking that dog today and deciding you'd like to bring him inside the house or to a dog park to meet other dogs.

The fact is breeders today don't want to produce a Pit dog nor a dog that can chase down 50 rats in less than 5 minutes. They certainly don't want a high strung dog that rakes havoc if allowed inside the house and deafness isn't an acceptable trait to have in any breed. Today, many dogs are kept inside the house and need to have better temperaments and with less aggression and hyperness.

When I look at the head and body structure of the Bull Terrier back then compared to now there's no question I'm fonder of the way the look now compared to the skinny Dalmatian look they once had. Not all will agree but it's obvious the EBT's center of attention today is its unique appearance. There playfulness, humor, and loyalty is also well respected. However, I don't think we could say that about the old Pit Fighters back in the day when this author cherished the look and purpose of the EBT.

I admit there are some bull terriers that have a much exaggerated head that really looks ridiculous and borders on potential health problems. However, by the stated standards of the breed today I'd have to admit the appearance, character, temperament, and health of the EBT is far better than years back.

 

 

 

sara_nala

Well put, thank you for that I was wondering if the health concerns were valid like does egging of the head affect the jaw lining up correctly? I love the video thank you it really puts things into prospective.  I agree with you the EBT has some great strides from good breeding to become the dog we love today. From the strength in the body to the smiles on there faces. You are right when looking back the breed does look a lot better now. Thank you for your time
Sara

Zerlett

the bull terriers do have problems with correct bites, it will always be an issue with a "head" breed, where the head is often a focus of attention. But I have seen dogs with round heads and great bites, and round heads with poor bites, its like playing the lottery, you never know. Most breeders however, strive to correct bites the best we can. I have a bitch that's very undershot, when bred to a male with a longer, straighter head, the bites turn out fine. I like all looks in the bull terrier, the old fashioned looking ones, the bulky looking ones with round heads, i just prefer an even middle. I do disagree tho, i bet if people back in the day discovered there bull terrier spinning obsessively in circles they would just shoot it, rather than medicate it like many do today. Bull terriers from what I have heard were poor fighters, thats why when dog fighting was illegal, they were pulled apart and made show dogs rather than staying in the fights, of course some still did but the fighting blood in the bull terrier is very far back and very limited, its no where near the lines now days. I was told the small eyes in the bull terrier was to protect them in a fight, the tight skin they need to have was to make it harder for there opponent to grab a hold of. Some fighting breeds have the opposite, loose skin so the opponent grabs it and the dog has plenty of room to move around in a fight to still grab the other dog. If you think about it, if a bull terrier is grabbed by the skin now in a fight, it will be hard for them to be able to reach around so easily. I was told the images of the bull terrier skull are extremely incorrect, it shows the dog goes strait undershot and that is simply not the case for every bull terrier jaw. 

BulliesofNC

I'm going to have to say most all canine breeds can have problems with their bite depending on their bloodlines. I guess I'm a little more fortunate to not have this problem amongst my dogs. However, I  have seen some others that do possess overbites and underbites. I don't think the blame can be placed strictly on the head shape. I've seen some EBT's with serious head slopes that had great bites.

As for the loose skin concept, that only worked with other breeds like the shar pei where they fought the dogs against other shar pei's. However, if you were to put one of those in a ring with an APBT you'd see the ABBT rip the skin right off the shar pei with an easy mouthful verse puncture wounds.

EBT's were fought for years as excellent contenders against all breeds. Their dwindle away from the ring was was during the development phases of the APBT and a better breed of Pit fighter became known. The "loose skinned" dogs would have been torn to peices during these times. To date the EBT would still dominate most any dog fight against other dogs besides a well build and healthy APBT.

I think the aspect of fighting any breed of dog is simply disgusting.

What is documented is that the early Bull Terriers had many genetic disorders associated with them. Most common was deafness passed down from English white terrier. The same breed of dog that was used in the creation of the Dalmatian. I can only imagine what other disorders the dog had but it's no mystery that the breed was dog aggressive.

Todays EBT has come along way and for that I'm happy. However, today's breeders are still doing their best to breed all the negative aspects out of the breed that were more prodominant in earlier years.

 

 

 

 

Zerlett

in japan they still breed tosa inus which have very lose skin. I personally just dont think bull terriers are skilled fighters, they get really pissed off but i dont think they have skill, against each other they can really hurt each other, but against other strong breeds, malamutes, akitas, american bull dogs, ect, they just would be able to defend themselves but not stand toe to toe with them. Some years ago someone showed me some videos of bull terriers in action, some from the past and some not too long ago of bull terriers in battle with other dogs, pit bulls, rotts and some others, the bull terrier never did good. With the way heads in this breed are headed, what will the average bull terrier look like in 20-30 years? I mean, can people get the heads more bazaar and round than they are now? I have seen some bull terriers that look down right scary in the heads, people breeding the extreme to the extreme to get the next best shock factor, really some of it is out of control.

BulliesofNC

Wow, you're the first person I heard that thought the EBT wouldn't fair against the breed of dogs you mentioned. I guess a lot has to do with the size and bloodlines of both dogs. I think there will come a time you'll realize different. Many years ago when we lived in a different area of NC a near by neighbor had his APBT running loose. He ended up in our backyard to deliberately initiate some trouble with one of my dogs who was out. That Pit Bull got a quick wake up call and neighbor was shocked to see the results of his actions. About a year ago our neighbor here who has a couple Boxers had one of his Big males loose and ended up attacking Maximus. His boxer is huge and had both weight and height on Maximus. He's an aggressive dog that gets along with no other dogs. I was outside when I heard the fight break out. It took a lot of energy to get Max off his dog after HE was attacked. In under a minute the boxer suffered serious damage. Aggressive he was but he was no match for a Bull Terrier. A rescue we received last year was rendered to us after fatally wounding the neighbors Domerman. These are just a few examples, but from what I've heard from others who've had to deal with the unwanted experience of a dog fight it wasn't the EBT that got the butt whooping. What you may not realize is the fact that EBT's have a very high tolerance for pain, much like the APBT. Yes, there are many types of dogs that people have fought but that doesn't mean they'd do well against a breed of dog with much higher energy, faster, and can tolerate serious injuries without giving up. The Tosa Inus, Shar Pei's, etc would be torn to pieces in a Pit Fight. I was stationed in both Mainland Japan and Okinawa where dog fighting is legal and very popular. I used to have to drive by a Pit ring every weekend when I took my kids motocrossing. Trust me they're using APBT not any fluffy loose skined dog that would be huffing and puffing after 5 minutes of a fierce attack. Some of the Marines stationed out there would go watch this corrupt torture to dogs and video it. Sick stuff and hard to imagine any dog could continue fighting after some much injury.

I don't think many people like the exagerted heads on a Bull Terrier. I've seen people posting photos of some on facebook and the feedback isn't in a positive nature. I think there will always be a nice slope, egg head, football head, roman head, etc that so many people like but it won't get too crazy where it looks deformed. It seems that the EBT head is getting a little wider while the muzzles are getting shorter and wider with a nice curved slope. I think today's EBT's that fall into the standards of the breed look awesome!

Daisy

About pain tolerance... Snoopy's head has accidentally been hit really HARD with the pantry door while the boys have been getting food.  He has acted like nothing happened.  

BulliesofNC

The downfall to their pain tolerance is the fact that they can easily re-injure themselves by ignoring a healing injury. The playfulness of a bullie can get themselves in trouble especially when they're very young. I've heard of several accounts where a puppy jumped off a chair or down some steps and injured a leg which required medical attention. Even with a cast on they'll continue to be clowns and forget all about their leg as though it doesn't bother them at all making the healing process difficult when they aren't limping on it or avoiding contact with it.  

Leslie

Daisy, just as long the eating habits don't change and theirs no pawing at or near the area and no swelling or contussions just keep a careful eye on the behavior. luckily the head has a lot of bone to protect it, but if anything strange occurs I would visit your vet for an xray. run a carefull hand over and around the entire area affected to feel for any swelling regularly for a couple days. don't trust the dog for signs that something is wrong because as Steve mentioned they truly have an amazing pain tolerance and sometimes can just suck it up:(( it hurts and they may paw at it a bit but go on their merry way:/

Daisy

Will do!

willo

i cant get the link to the article to work, pity i would be interested to read what was said in it

BulliesofNC

Here it is.... http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

I fixed the above link also. 

willo

thanks steve yes it was an interesting read....I quite liked the working terrier standard at the end

however it is true that the bull terrier is no longer a working dog since it's primary "work" (ie;fighting and baiting) is now illegal in most countries of the world

the gull terriers of pakistan and india where they are still used in the pits are probably closer to the bullies of fifty years ago than todays bullies are 

Leslie

Daisy, how is Snoopy doing?

Zerlett

Nope, 50 years ago they were already very close to what they are now, here is a bully from the 70's...

http://anndeesbullterriersofficialsite.com/redadair.html

monero82

I agree I think I like the bull terrier a lot more the way it looks now then what it did back then iv heard different things about the different shapes on there heads and me personally I like more the Roman finish and the football shaped heads on the bull terriers I actually just got a female and she has a really curved head and comes from a good bloodline but what iv been wondering is how did they go from looking like a dalmation to the Roman finish and football heads

Daisy

Thanks, Zerlett, for asking.  Snoopy is great:)

willo

not really zerlett in the 70s the dog youve shown was quite a rarity rather than commonplace

BulliesofNC

That's correct. This was a show style bullie 40 years ago.

 

 

 

THOR

 Ok im getting a pup he is white fawn but I had a question just on this situation if any could help.. if the puppy and I looked at the father and both have longer heads is that a bad thing or is it bad genetics thank you and let me know if that is natural in some bull terriers

THOR

Just wondering if this looks like a good head shape im doing my studying and will be getting my first EBT next month.... much needed input please and thank you

BulliesofNC

(I provided a more detailed reply from your previous post on this subject.)

It's hard to really judge the look of the mothers head from that picture. However, from what I can see I think she looks fine. Trust me when I say, I've seen BT with small really long heads with tiny skinny muzzles. To judge a dogs structure and conformation most will wish to see the dog in a stacked position. Seeing their whole body from the side clearly shows what they look like. A close up of a dogs head profile as well as a straight on shot is very helpful. A photo with a BT laying down in a travel kennel (hopefully not the whelping box) with her ears back make it difficult to judge the true look of her head as well as body structure.

You could always ask them for a photo of both parents in a stacked position so you can truly view their structure and conformation. If the structure of the head worries you ask them to send a profile close up. Attached below are a couple examples of photos of Nitro that provide people with a good idea of his structure and conformation.

THOR

Ok thank you very much iv been doing alot of studying both notheing really tells you to much about head structure besides the head being egg shaped... I love this breed and I just want to get a very happy and very healthy pup.... but I do appreciate it and I will get a couple pictures of full body and head shots... and I was thinking the same thing im just getting super excited.. but thanks again that was very helpful

BulliesofNC

Well hopefully you read my other post in which I attached the breed standards from BTCA which goes into a lot more detail than "egg shaped." Here it is again in case you didn't see my first post on the other thread.

THOR

Ok that males alot of since and yes I have noticed the same thing to and I think all styles of bull terrier head shapes are beautiful in every way.... I just wonna make sure before I do get a pup to be sure I get a pup thats happy and healthy... thank you I do appreciate you responding back