Birthing Bullies

phubat52

Well there's a first time for everything but with the wealth of information available from reputable breeders (both kennel and individual) there's no need to make it through the process with "wailing and knashing of teeth". This will be our first litter with our BT "Abby" and we've searched the web, watched "you-tube" videos, spoken with our vet, e-mailed a couple of "well known but not too helpful" breeders (one in the UK wanted to know why we just didn't get Abby spayed and was pretty mean sounding about it!), What we have done is build a 48"x48" whelping box with 12inch sides with the capability to add another 10 inches of heigth as the puppies get bigger. I also added a 4 inch rail around the inside of the box as an aid to any pups that may get caught between the box sides and their mother. I have a designated room in the house for the box and I have an additional space heater to help keep the room warmer than the rest of the house.

I have heard that some BT bitches can be pretty hard on their pups while others are "model moms", that pups need to be orally infused with pedialyte, we've seen where, during birth, the owner would take each pup from it's birth sac and clip the umbilical cord instead of allowing the mother to do so, they would allow the pup to suckle for a moment then remove it to a holding box with either a heat lamp or heating pad. We've heard that pups need to sleep separate from the mother. What I would really like is to get good solid advice on these issues and any other that would in the end make for a safe event that would ultimately provide a good start for the pups and reduce the stress on the mother. So we're ready to learn! Thanks so much!

Lin,Cathy and of course "Abby"

BulliesofNC

I must say, that is one of the best questions that has been asked. I say this because now we're touching on a subject that most breeders either don't want to talk about due to their own lack of knowledge, fear competition, or simply would rather convince you not to breed by saying something negative to you in regard to your experience and knowledge. Those are usually the breeders who might have one litter a year and have only experienced the birth of a litter a few times in the their lives. Had you have posted that question on other FORUMS you would most difinitely have received an onslaught of replies from club members, one dog only owners, and other "want to be" EBT subject matter experts telling you not to breed vice helping you whelp a litter of healthy puppies.  

Your research, current preparation, ambition, and ability to reach out to others with questions shows that you have the motivation and intelligence to do things right. That's the easy part. It will be your dedication during and after the birth that will truly determine if you will be a good breeder. Unfortunately much of what you read in regard to the difficulties breeding bull terriers was true. Trust me if it were easy there would a lot more backyard breeders out there doing it in attempts to raise a profit and make money. These are ones who usually fail miserably because they lack (and always will) the love and compassion for the breed.

I tell everyone that has the desire to breed EBT's to first and foremost get very familiar with the breed, ensure they know the proper standards of the breed, and only plan a breeding between a mating pair if both dogs have been tested for genetic disorders associated with the breed and also if they can honestly say that by breeding the pair they'd be doing so to benefit the breed line in good harmony with the breed standards. If these elements fall in line with your intentions to breed, and you have the dedication to devote towards it then by all means - breed some gorgeous healthy bull terriers that meet or exceed the expectations of even the hardest critics.

Here's something I've said before that many hate me bringing up. If you ever wish to judge an EBT breeder on their dedication, knowledge, and experience take a look at when they publically announce the birth of their litter and offer their puppies to qualified homes. At least 90% of them you find wait until the puppies are around 3-5 weeks of age. Why? The reason is because most of them cannot or will not dedicate themselves to the litter and ensure proper monitoring and attention is provided to both the mother and her puppies. Without this kind of dedication you will be putting the puppies at risk for neglect, injury, or death from the mother. Just because there were 7 puppies born doesn't mean there will 7 healthy puppies a couple weeks or days after they were born. The underlining factor is a successful litter is determined by the personality of instincts of the mother as well as the time and devoting you as the breeder puts into the love, attention, and care you provide the mother and her puppies. Yes, we publically announce the birth of our litters the day they are born as well as send out photos bragging about them. We were thrilled to have had 2 of our females give birth over the last 2 months. Both females gave birth to 7 puppies. Caring for two mothers and 14 puppies is a lot of work. Keeping them healthy and strong is a commitment but if you love EBT's as much as we do it's an awesome experience that we truly enjoy. For those interested in seeing our current litters from day 1 to 8 weeks of age please feel free to view: Litter SJ20 and Litter SJ21.

 

On your first litter anticipate that your female will not be a good mother and prepare for it. Pick yourself up some Milk Replacer just in case the mother stresses so much that her body chemistry gets out of line and she becomes dangerous to the puppies resulting in having to remove the puppies and care for them on your own. Even in the event one of our mothers will not take to the puppies in the way she should both my wife and I resort to a 48 hour constant supervision (in the whelping box) forcing the mother to nurse the puppies. For us the aspect of having the puppies receive the colostrum from the mother is crucial. After 2 or 3 days the mother will not be producing colostrum and if she's still not willing to nurse the puppies or shows signs of unmanageable stress than we will at that time remove the puppies from her care and hand feed them until they are old enough to start eating on their own. There's truly no way of knowing if your female is going to be a good mother or bad mother. As a matter of fact just because she was a bad mother with her first litter doesn't mean she'll be a bad mother on her next - vice versa.

When a puppy is born my procedures are as follows:

• Guide the puppy out of the womb
• Manualy break open the sac (sometimes the sac will already be broken especially on breach)
• Suck out any and all fluids from the puppy's mouth using an aspirator
• Cut the placenta about 1cm from the belly button with sterilized scissors
• Tied the umbilical cord with non-waxed dental floss that's been soaking in a small bowl of alcohol (cut excess thread once tied)
• Feed the placenta to the mother (she'll have been watching you this whole time and wanting her puppy back)
• Clean off the puppy with a small dry towel
• Weigh and record the puppy's weight while the mother is eating the placenta
• Coax the mother into lying back down and provide the puppy a nipple watching the mother closely. She will be wanting to clean the puppy but should not be welcomed to pick it up in her mouth and walk around with it in confusion. If she does, don't panic just coax her to give you the puppy, relax her and get her to lie down and nurse. A good mother will turn to lick and clean the puppy while the puppy is nursing.
• Record all data about the puppy - Time born, weight, sex, colors and markings. If you have 2 solid white puppies born of the same sex have a couple ribbons available to tie around their collars so you can identify them.

Stay with the mother the entire time she's giving birth. You'll know she's done when she stops having contractions.

 

Please understand I've left out many..many...different things to consider and prep for. However, if I were to annotate everything from conducting temperature records on the female to determine when she's going to give birth to when the weeing process starts I'd have written a book. I suggest we take one aspect of breeding and making into a single subject for this Forum so we're not putting everything into this one post. As an example, should you have a question on Cutting the Umbilical cord we can make that one subject and expand on it. Another post could be proper sized whelping boxes, or when to bottle feed, etc.

There's just so many topics that can be brought up based on your post and the more I sit and type I start thinking about an onslaught of topics that really should be brought up but not all at once in one post.

Don't be fooled from what you read on other posts from people that really don't have the experience they claim they do. When in doubt ask them how many AKC recorded litters they've whelped as the breeder of a litter. Sometimes it seems as though the ones doing the most talking are the ones trying to project a imagine to others as a professional dog owner vice remaining silent and learning themselves. Those telling you they have to remove the puppies from their litters may be doing so simply to provide them with the freedom of leaving the house, going to work, or any other reason besides total dedication. Most of the time you'll find that with proper attention the mother adapt to becoming a great mother for her puppies. She just needs your love and support.

phubat52

Thanks for getting back to me. I believe you are also familiar with the breeder I got Abby from. Her name is Leslie McDonald in Spartanburg. Abby was bred to an all white BT named "Beau" owned by Jinni Price in Marion, NC. I know I will make some mistakes, the ones that I want to avoid are the ones that put mother and pups in harms way. Since I have seen the cords cut and I have some medical background from my Air Force days I would not hesitate to get my hands wet so to speak. Abby's temperment is very, very good as she loves our cats and my other two dogs, one of which is 13 years old and almost totally blind. She is not food aggressive and while very vocal with strangers she warms up quickly to them. She also loves children and has never exhibited any aggressive behaviour with my grandkids or their freinds. Any advice you can share will be heeded and appreciated. She is due on or about the 8th of this month. Thanks so much and I look forward to this grand event!

Lin,Cathy and Abby

BulliesofNC

Yes, I know both Leslie (Rainbow Kennels) and Ginne (Windy Knolls Kennel) very well. As a matter of fact one of our stud dogs (Maximus) is "Beau's" father. What litter did Abby come from?

Abby might be the most loving and gentle Bullie in the world but until she gives birth you wont know how good of a mother she'll be. I think she'll be good though. Just give her the attention she needs.

 

Zerlett

Ohhh this is a good topic. I would like to reply on it and some of my views might be different than BulliesofNC but thats what were here for to share many views! I have heard horror stories of bull terriers killing there young, and many many times i have heard of people leaving mothers unsupervised and sitting on there puppies. With me, I did what a lot of breeders told me to do, which was separate mother from puppies which i have to say seemed to cause stress to my females , which they might have been better moms had I not done it, one of my females handled it better than my other female but none the less i am super paranoid so i did it to always have the upper hand, I think maybe the second time around they might be better and I can try to leave them with there moms instead of taking them. The only time the pups were taken was every 3 hours during sleeping, or anytime someone wasnt home to watch them like we had to go to the store. I lost A LOT of sleep, and it would take like 30 minutes for them to feed during the night, I didnt care, it gave me peace of mind to know they were always safe. My females were never aggressive to the babies, but clumsy as all hell, the first few days they move too much, readjusting and would lay right on top of them and the puppy would cry like hell and the mother would be like hmmm whats that muffled noise? ahhhh it drove me insane!! I have seen many breeders stop breeding bullies because of how they are as mothers, ive seen people have one litter and when i ask when there next one is they respond with "i have no idea if i will ever do it again!!" I knew someone whose female (very unstable temperament) kill 5 out of 8 due to stress. I tried to sleep next to the whelping pen, i made a bed right in front of it but the noises of the puppies squeaking just for any reason woke me every ten minutes and i just couldnt do it! I am going to try again next time because I devoted to finding a way that works for everyone but it also as safe as taking them when they couldnt be watched. With my litters they were watched 24/7 until 3 weeks old, at 3 weeks old I gave them to her and went to sleep without interruption when i woke up i flew in there and started counting heads. Everyone was fine, EXCEPT a couple days after leaving her with them at 3 weeks I found one with a broken tail, his mother must have stepped on it in such a way that she broke it and it remained kinked, there was nothing I could do and none of the other puppies had any further problems. I didnt advertise mine until around 2-3 weeks not because I didn't think they wouldnt survive I had full control over that, but because I wanted to see the development of their heads and that way I could price them more accurately since I dont think all puppies are created equally, thats when I decided to have one of my puppies co owned with a friend of mine that was especially nice, because i couldn't keep him but wanted to use him for one of my other females sometime. There is SO MUCH to consider with breeding, monitoring the milk, make sure the mother doesn't become calcium deficient so give her a tums after whelping and DO NOT supplement with calcium during the pregnancy a good diet is all she needs no vitamins unless folic acid. Personally I prefer to take x rays a couple weeks before delivery because I lost 2 puppies due to not taking x rays and she lost them because she went too long...a friend of mine just lost 4 because her female went too long, and knowing when shes due is vital and making sure she doesnt go too long, when her temperature drops and she doesnt go into labor, that can be a big warning sign, both mine and my friends females temperature dropped and they didnt go into labor our mistake, you live and learn but the amount of guilt we can put on ourselves can be overwhelming. As bulliesofnc said we couldnt possibly put everything on here its too much but ask as you go and we can answer bit by bit, it will be helpful to have peoples numbers on hand in case you need to ask questions at the time and my number is always out there to see so your always welcome to call me if you have problems 702 741 7805 and ill help the best i can. Personally I always take the puppy out of the sack, rub it face down with a brand new rag until it starts crying and i let the mom chew the cord i just put my fingers at the end closest to the puppy and i let them chew to my fingers and than try to keep them from chewing further. some mothers become obsessed with that and will never leave the cords alone just try to distract them so they dont cause an umbilical hernia from constantly messing with the cord. After its squeaking and clean I put them on a nipple immediately so that the mother will calm down and that will cause more contractions, as soon as I see more contractions I remove the puppy so that mom doesnt step on them trying to get the other puppy out. i put the puppy in a warm box with a heating pad in it under the towel. sorry about my grammar right now its late and im typing fast!!

Zerlett

I would love to see your female and the male you used too, if you can post photos for us! =D

phubat52

Thanks for All the Support Guys! Leslie actually said that she slept next to the litter because of fear of the mother doing something wrong, and she did snap at a couple of the pups. But, all turned out well. Abby's mom and dad were "Dragonheart" (sire) and "Wildwood Cleo" (dam).  On the "getting ready" side of things, we have the box ready, I'm clearing the den today, My daughter has surgical scissors, gauze pads, betadine, unwaxed floss, rubber gloves and towels. We are ready, losgistically anyway! (maybe not mentally) ha ha. As to pics, I need to figure out the posting process since I can't upload from my C or F drive.

Thanks

Lin,Cathy and Abby

>-

BulliesofNC

Here's a photo of the parents of Abby:

 

 

Here's a Picture of the Stud used with Abby:

Zerlett

hmmm im not sure i like the parents all that much but that stud is very nice i like him a lot.

BulliesofNC

Geez Danielle.   :O   Lol...No sugar coating that one. Actually Draco is a nice looking Bullie with a great temperament. he has sired many great litters by Rainbow Kennels.

The stud "Bo" used in Abby's upcoming litter has been Windy Knolls most productive stud over the course of 4 years in which time he has probably sired 15 litters.

It only seems like yesterday that we had him here with us as a little puppy from a past litter of ours.

Zerlett

Sorry I edited your post and fixed my name it was spelled like a boy! Hahaha. I like Bo, is he a son of max? Wow that is a huge amount!! I think the angle/quality makes a huge difference when taking a photo, if the photo is not taken a certain way, it can make a dog look better or worse. A lot of times I will question a dog and than see a different photo and change my mind, some people dont realize that, a bad photo and a well taken photo can make all the difference when showing the features of the dog, perhaps its just the photo, seeing a dog in person and being able to run your hands over it is best.

Zerlett

And my comment was geared a bit more at the female, to each there own I know many people who will drop top dollar on a dog with more terrier features.

BulliesofNC

I know what you mean Danielle. The stud "Bo" is the only one related to my bloodlines. Draco and Chloe are from Rainbow Kennels. Draco has sired many nice looking litters. I've never seen Draco or Chloe so I can't contest as to their true structure or conformation.  :-??

phubat52

Guys and Gals,

  Sorry for the absence, I can give you two reasons why I've not posted yet and the first one does not count! Abby had her 5 beautiful pups on 2/15 and counting back 63 days we were off a bit on our first due date. All births were head first and my daughter and I removed them all from the sacs and cut the cords. Abby tried to chew at the cords but it was apparent she was being too aggressive in her chewing and we did not want to risk any hernias. Even though I said we had 5 one actually was still born and never even tried to take a breath, we tried for 10 minutes to resuscitate but she never came around. It is sad to lose the battle with a still born puppy but it is natures way.

But, we have 4 beautiful, healthy bullies (3 females-predominantly white with black highlights on the head and 1 brindle/white male) all with healthy appetites I must say! We've kept them separate from Abby except for feedings but last night ( with me sleeping next to the whelping box) mom and pups stayed together all night. I still will not leave them with her unattended though. Abby is a fairly good mom and watches her footing when she is entering the box. I am feeding her a combination of dried puppy food and canned food along with a periodic bowl of goat's milk.

I must say here that along with this forum I have had a wonderful experience with talking to Pam Desmond and Elaine Howard from "Ann-Dees". They are very nice ladies and offered some excellent advice. I would highly recommend them as a reference to anyone looking to have a litter of bullies.

Steve, Jinnie said to tell you hello! (I understand you are a retired Marine, I retired from the USAF back in 1992. (I've now been out almost as long as I was in!)

Lin,Cathy and Abby (plus 4)

BulliesofNC

Lin, Cathy, and Abby

 

I'm glad things turned out pretty good with your litter. Sorry to hear that one of them didn't make it but it's good to know you have 4 healthy puppies.

I haven't spoke to Ginne in a while and hope she's doing well. I didn't think she was breeding Bull Terriers anymore.

Pam Desmond and Elaine Bernard are great people and been involved with Bull Terriers for many years. I don't think I've spoken to Pam but we have spoken with Elaine many times a few years ago. I'm glad they were able to provide you with some help. Sorry that we couldn't have been more of a help for you.

I'm sad to hear that you're separating the pups from the mother except for feeding. In my opinion, that causes a lot of stress on the mother, restricts the puppies from feeding when they wish to feed, and doesn't allow the mother to clean them and induce them to relieving themselves when necessary. If Abby is feeding them and cleaning up after them I'm not quite sure why you'd wish to separate them. Again it's just my opinion but one I think most breeders would agree with. I think if I had tried doing that with either Cyra or Makoa on their litters last month they would have gone nuts trying to find their puppies and properly attend to them. Cyra's 7 puppies are 8 weeks of age right now and the lightest one is 9.2 lbs. They're some BIG puppies. By the way, Cyra's dad is Ann-Dee's Catagory Nine.

Yes, I'm a retired Marine of 21 years and so is my partner Craig who lives in Jacksonville, NC. The Marine Corps was great but it sure feels nice being retired and enjoying life without deploying every year. I commend you for time served in the service.

We'd sure love to see some photos of your puppies. I'm sure they're gorgeous. :-bd

 

-Steve

 

BulliesofNC

Lin,

I tried calling you back but only got your voice message. I truly wished to speak with you in further length but needed to entertain a couple that came from NY that was here to pick up their puppy.

Please feel free to call me back so we can talk further. I could tell you had a true ambition to ensure the best for your litter and I too wish for a healthy litter for you that will conform to the best possible aspect during their early stages. I try not to articulate in writing my oppinions too much as I've found in contridicts with other breeders practices. However, from time to time I meet others that can relate to my practices due to their focus on documentated medical research and overall experience. Again, I will always fall back on the primary success of any litter relies heavily on the commitment of the owner. Pull the puppies away from the mother if you can't devote towards the supervision during the first few days or the mother isn't willingly to raise them in a safe manner, but once pulled don't torment the mother with welcoming them back and forth during the feeding times that are convient to you. I guarantee if she's a good mother this will only stress the mother out and she'll be forever hunting for her puppies when they're gone.

I think sometimes the majority of the stress comes from the owner vice the dog because they are visually seeing the mother acting more aggressively with the puppies by moving around quickly, acting confused, picking up a puppy for no purpose, or whining. This is the time supervision is needed where you can calm the mother. Try and remember she is going through a lot of chamical changes within her body from birth and her reasctions can be off centered. However, 99% of the time her intentions are not to harm her puppies. Bare with her and relax her. After the first few days she will adapt and except her responsibilities to nurse her litter. Yes, there are times where a mother can over stress and kill a puppy or even entire litter. However, it's not common trait nor one to continually worry about especially if the mother if doing her job by nursing and cleaning the puppies.

Years ago I had a female that wasn't a good mother and bottle feeding was most difinetely warranted. That asumption was made as soon as the puppies were born and she made several attempts to kill them. In this type of circumstance I agree with those that decide to seperate the litter from the mother. There may even come a time after a week or two that the mother relentlessly keeps avoiding the puppies, tries to carry a puppy to a new location, or can't remain still to render feedings and it becomes neccessary to comit to seperating the puppies from the litter. However, this decision comes during a time when supervision wasn't enough and the decision was based off a timely notation of the mothers lack of ability to conduct a natural whelping.

This is a difficult subject to articulate in writing and I had wished to speak with you in further detail on the phone. Hopefully you will read this and contact me again. I wish you luck with your litter but from listening to your scenario I think Abby is going to do just fine and in about 3 weeks you'll be proud of her.

 

Zerlett

I agree, with that said you have a lot more experience than me with litters as I have only the 2 litters under my belt, im hoping with my girls and there next litters that they will have experience and do better and i wont need to do puppy removal. What do you do when your sleeping and can not monitor them? do you sleep near the whelping box so that you will wake up? Also how many litters do you think a female should be allowed to have and when do you think the female is too old to breed? I also noticed to help reduce stress with my last litter since I had 7 I rotated them in groups, gave ellie 4 of them and kept away the other 3 so that it was less likely she would lay on one and yet she didnt notice the other 3 were missing, we would take her outside to potty and swap them to reduce the stress.

BulliesofNC

Danielle,

For the first 2 or 3 days my wife and I (mostly my wife) take turns watching over the litter to ensure things are going smoothly. We always have the whelping box in our bedroom so we can hear them at night. In the event the mother is under a lot of stress and anxiety while giving birth or the following couple days we provide them with a natural relaxer called Pet-Eze Plus made by 21st Century. We use the Level 3 bottle. This actually really helps with calming the female so she'll relax, lie down, and nurse her litter.

As far as totating the puppies, I'm truly not onboard with that idea. I know that even if I took one puppy from a litter the mother would recognize she's missing a puppy and immediately stress. She may even make it a priority to go on a search for the puppy. This might make her want to start picking puppies up in attempts to carry them to a safer place where they won't disappear. If you really want to take a little stress away from the mother try supplementing the puppies by bottle feeding on occasions and providing a little releif for the momma. Anytime I have a litter of 6 or more we always supplement.

I'll admit our first few litters were very stressful for us because we always worried about every little reaction from the mother. Constantly thinking she's being too rough, cringing every time she got up to move around and stepped on a pup, etc. However, within every litter this is going to happen and although the female may seem like she lacks the skills to safely whelp her litter it's often the breeders' reactions that cause the most stress. Bull Terriers aren't very gentle mothers but they will get the job done if you allow them to follow their natural instincts and keep them calm.

We usually retire a female from breeding after her 3rd litter. However, in the event she isn't a good mother or had a huge litter we may not breed her again. A lot depends on the health and temperament of the individual dog. After a female has a litter we won't breed her again until she goes through another 2 heat cycles which is about one and a half years. If it was a big litter (we had a female give birth to 11 healthy puppies) we'll wait longer.

 

Here's a couple photos taken 4 or 5 years ago of female that was high stressed but ended doing exceptionally well with all 10 of her puppies:

Zerlett

im totally going to pick up some pet-eze!!