Nature or nurture

Gypsy123

I've been following @bigbear1tracey story with Precious for the last few months,and as I'm sure we all have,I ve been rooting for them both.so it's set me thinking and I'd be interested to hear other people's opinions on nature or nurture.for instance,if @bigbear1tracey had got Precious at 8 weeks would the outcome have been different?or do you think that if a breed line has,let's say,questionable temperament is it a given that the puppies will be the same?any thoughts?

Roman

I think a lot of the time puppies are products of there environment if left alone and not given the right time and socialisation and care then they can come aggressive and a menace as is seen more with pitbull etc as wrong people have them for the wrong reasons however a slight percentage of the time is definitely the breeding looking more for looks size etc with no care for temperment as I have met a few dogs who there owners have did everything for them and they still have a nasty side

Djammy

Nature or nurture?

I think both can be the valid. Aggression can have many different causes.

Nature

I’ve often read about dubious breeders now and in the past selectively breeding aggression intended or by accident - by crossing two particularly aggressive individuals and thus planting the aggression into the genetic information.

After all I know it takes some generations of offspring to genetically plant certain characteristics or behaviors into a breed.

As someone who is very convinced of the influence the environment has on most individuals while only a small part is more influenced by genetic predisposition, I find it hard to imagine that a certain behavior can be bred accidentally within only one line of offspring.

The dog either originates from bloodlines with a certain history of aggression. In that case I’d assume that the entire litter would show such tendencies. Or something went wrong in one puppy - genetically speaking - causing one “damaged” aggressive individual.

In the past certain aggressive dogs were intentionally crossed to breed aggressive “fighting machines” for dog fights.

It's an interesting question, if some bloodlines of breeds that were used over a long time to breed “fighting dogs” and then spread across the world actually may have a higher potential of aggressive offspring. Maybe it is particularly important with those breeds to focus on intentionally “breeding out” aggressive tendencies by excluding particularly aggressive individuals or entire bloodlines as a breeder.

I honestly don’t know if this really is a general matter, because I am neither a breeder nor a behaviorist.
According to Steve, who is a breeder and specialist, there's something about it.

It’s highly discussed among behaviorists and also part of the entire “dangerous dog” labeling issue going on. Different story, I know.

But I still feel this is not really the core problem today with dogs and breeds when it comes to widespread aggression issues.

Another factor, just as among humans, every now and then there are single individuals that just do not fit socially and show a pathologically higher level of aggression for whatever reason by birth, regardless of the bloodline. It happens. But in my opinion it’s by far not such a widespread problem as aggression caused by lack of training, abuse or neglect is one.

In the case of Precious we may actually be looking at one of the few cases of one individual that is pathologically off track by birth.

Hopefully it’s just the one individual. Because I don’t want to imagine a breeder actually breeding aggressive bloodlines today.

I think the breeder knew about the issues and should have been honest, because then the entire situation could have been avoided and more importantly could have ended far worse.

It probably was a particularly unfortunate and dangerous in this case, because the dog may have been constantly stressed out being unintentionally faced with a number of triggers for her aggression in this household.

Her surroundings on the other hand were also stressed out to the point of fear by her behavior.

More importantly this kind of aggression likely can’t be corrected by traditional obedience training only, making the dog a ticking time bomb.
It’s just impossible to work on or manage such serious issues in a trigger-rich environment.
Everything was heading towards escalation and it was a good decision to pull the ripcord. It’s sad, but probably the best solution for everyone involved.

It was also a good decision to inform the shelter about every detail. This way they have a chance to give the dog only to an experienced and dedicated owner.

I think a dog that reacts aggressive to other dogs, people or especially kids can still be owned and live a happy life, if handled with particular caution in the right environment and in experienced hands. That’s where environment comes in even for this kind of dogs. But of course a potential owner needs to know in advance what he engages in. And the initial situation in the household should of course exclude known aggression triggers. Kids should also not be around.

With such dogs many things - normal for other owners - such as family living with kids, visits to crowded places, unleashing the dog anywhere in public or going to a dog park may never be an option. Such dogs just need special attention and management for all their life.

When we were looking for our first Bull Terrier the breeder had a rescue on site, a beautiful white Bull Terrier called Jack. He was small and very athletic, a clown, crazy for balls and people.

The perfect pet, or wasn’t he: The breeder told us that this dog will probably grow old on his property, because he had severe aggression issues with other dogs. The breeder called him a “killer” and made it clear that he had no intention of re-homing this really cute boy.

He had large premises and the dog had a huge kennel just for himself. So I guess he was kind of lucky after all not having ended up being punished by death for some unfortunate incident.

Nurture

Honestly I think - and the breeder stated the same - that these cases described above are far more rare than the cases of dogs, who are constantly showing aggression or dominance simply due to a lack of proper training and socializing. Again, this is when environment comes in.

Just as with children the environment has a tremendous impact on the development of dogs either, also when it comes to problem behaviors. It's natural for them to challenge life when they are young and training is essential to have them mature into well behaved dogs.

Therefore when dealing with aggression it’s always essential to investigate the causes and of course it’s helpful to know the true background of the dog.

It’s also vital in my opinion to start early with the obedience training with any dog in order to use the critical learning period of a puppy to it’s highest behavioral benefit as well as reveal and work on problem behaviors early.

The major importance of this early learning period often shows in older dogs that are found in shelters with aggression, dominance issues or other behavioral problems. If it’s no genetic predisposition or pathological brain failure, but rather the result of neglect and no training, it’s usually possible to get such dogs on track at least to a certain point by training and patience.

It’s usually far more hard work than training a puppy and also requires a lot of experience and a trigger-controlled environment, because the bad behavior is already imprinted. There also may be things remaining that just can’t be erased by training and need ongoing caution.

Environmental factors CAUSING aggression:

Aggression in a dog can also be triggered by being beaten or abused frequently and therefore developing a fear of certain human gestures, such as raising a hand or voice. Also an effect of environmental influence. If such a dog is a rescue with no information about the background, it may just seem aggressive by nature when it attacks a human raising his hand. Yet, it was the environment that made the dog aggressive and if an experienced person is able to realize what’s going on, this kind of aggression can be worked on with love, understanding and training.

Drilling a dog to become aggressive against people or other animals by training and reinforcement is another - very negative - example of environmental influence. Theoretically it’s not necessary to find a “naturally aggressive” dog for that kind of drill. It could be any dog as long as the owner manages to create a strong bond and is able to make the dog believe that aggression is wanted and necessary to protect the pack. Of course, breeds predominantly abused for such purposes are breeds of muscular, "dangerous" looks, certain size and a certain bite strength. But I dare to state that even a Dachshund could be drilled to bite whatever crosses his way.

All these cases speak for the huge impact of environment as well as handling on aggression in a dog - sadly negatively as well as positively.

With much more extensive consequences than the impact of genetics IMO. Which is unfortunate, because if it were that simple, we could just breed us some nice and relaxed puppies by thorough selection. But sadly that’s not how it solely works and there are lots of people around who don’t pay much attention to their dog's training requirements.

The case of Precious is one of the few cases in which an aware owner tried her best to work on the situation by managing and training, but was just not set-up for success. I feel sorry for everyone involved.

bigbear1tracey

Thank u @Gypsy123 for starting up this topic and thank u for your comments @Djammy and @roman I did contact the seller to tell her the issues I was having with presious she asked what was happening and when I told her she said why do u think this had happened I told her because she hasn't been socialised she never replied then I messaged her again telling her I was going to have to rehome her because what was happening she never replied offered no surrport on finding a rescue had nothing to say so for me that said it all when I spoke to tracey fletcher the chair person of the bull terrier welfare trust she did say the same as steve that u wouldn't pay £550 pounds from a reputable breeder and that she was just produced for a quick money so sad I'm glad I'm not like the breeder I was 100 per cent truthfull about every detail of preciouses behaviour and it was not a problem she will be homed to someone who has no other pets I just hope she's homed quickly when I think about how she must be feeling not knowing where she is I just cry it makes me fill sick to my gut my poor girl right going to shoot off as crying my eyes out xxx