What are the outbreeds present on the Bull Terrier? How did they get the colors and the egg head?

luigisayshello

So I was wondering during a discussion on breeds present on a Bull Terrier, what breeds are "inside" the genetic structure of a EBT and how the egg, round head and triangular eyes come from?

Plus how come most of the colored EBT grow faster/ bigger than most of the white bull terriers? 

A thought line to help this, is asking how would you get a rounder head (for example) in the spring of straight head EBT?

venger

OK

I will take a stab at this.

But its just what I was told and have no way of knowing the exact truth.

Dog fighters in Britain used a Bull n Terrier cross for combat.

The same dogs the modern APBT were bred down off.

A man called Hinks admired the courage and Gameness of these Dogs.

However they were rough and not uniform in appearance due to being bred for work alone.

People werent worried what the Dog looked like.

Also they had a bad reputation being associated with dog fighters and rougher type people.

So Hinks decided to produce a tidied up version more Terrier than Bull with a Terrier head with eyes on the side.

He also wanted an all White Dog.

And one that behaved in a more GENTLEMANLY manner than the other Bull n Terrier mixes so that it would not start fights but would stand its ground if challenged.

So he took a few select fighting Bull n Terriers and put in more Terrier with the addition of White English Terrier blood.

Then he also added Dalamation to get  a taller Dog.

He got the White Dog he anted.

And also kept a lot of fighting ability so that when the Dog was accepted by the KC it became a Favourite of British Army Officers who took them all over the Empire.

In India and Pakistan the locals, who were big fans of Dog fighting, greatly admired the EBT as a better fighter than their own Dogs.

To the extent that they would bring their Bitches to get served with them, and if an Officer was giving a Gift to someone important an EBT was first choice.

There are still Dogs there that look like the original Hinks EBT.

Back in Britain they found that breeding for an all White Dog they were also breeding deafness.

So they mixed more of the fighting Dogs back into their EBT to get a coloured version.

At some point a Dog won a big show which had a head more like the modern version than the original

That and an even more exaggerated version became the new standard people aimed for.

It is said that shape was achieved by mixing Borzoi and Collie of the Lassie type, into the EBT .

If you look up the Hinks Dog you can see the completely different heads.

Anyway when they decided to produce a Miniture version of the EBT they mixed in Jack Russel Terrier.

Thats as far as I know anyway.

I am willing to listen to other explanations.

BulliesofNC

I was going to take a stab at the question but it really pertained to the general question of "How did the Bull Terrier come into existence?" Head, nose, eyes, etc all of which are unique to the breed dating back many years but changing slowly into a more defined and thicker Bull Terrier within the more recent years based solely on the popularity of what is being seen at today's shows.

In regard to colored Bull Terriers growing faster or even getting bigger than whites there's no true merit in that at all. Actually most of the time it's a white puppy from a litter that's the stand out big puppy from the litter of mixed colors.

The rounder heads became popular many years ago in England where they were becoming more defined. Now, people pay close attention to the development and size of the heads within Bull Terriers as a hallmark of their qualities. Unfortunately there are still many bloodlines that possess the qualities that exhibit small, frail, and slender Bull Terriers with narrow and straight muzzles. It's becoming more and more popular in America but the true EBT enthusiasts can easily identify the qualities that lack proper standard form from the the ones that emphasize it with prominent bone structure.

luigisayshello

I say this because of some honey colored EBT, that I have the pleasure to know and/or see that were simply giant, the range was from 35-40 kg, very very muscular and , beautiful all around, for me the perfect EBT, I wished to saw a all white one with that genetics it would be something else. 

BulliesofNC

35 kg is Big for any Bull Terrier. I like them stocky too.

Nitro is a white Bull Terrier and he is between 33 and 34 kg and his weight looks nice on him. I don't think I'd want him any bigger.

venger

This is a wee bit off topic.

But I did read an old Standard that had been drawn up by some club no longer around.

1800s.

It was their standard for the American Pit Bull Terrier.

And it called for a flat head rather than the usual split type.

I always wondered if they had imported a lot of EBTs to build their Line on.

Their was a famous pit Dog in America called Frisco Sport.

He was a straight first cross between an EBT and a local Pit Bull.

Years ago the Irish were proud of the Kerry Blue as the National Dog.

Back then in order for your Kerry to become a Champion and a Desirable Stud he had to pass a working test.

The Heavy Game consisted of a test to Badger in order to prove Hardness and Courage.

It was extremely common for people to cross EBT into their lines of Kerry Blues.

Their heads were fairly similar.

Anyway the result is nowadays all the Champion Kerry Blues in America, Ireland etc have EBT in their roots.

It can be interesting to trace the genetic make up and lineage of Breeds.

You would be surprised how many breeds you never think of can trace their ancestory back to the old British Combat Bulldog who the Romans discovered in Britain and who was unknown anywhere else in the World.

venger

I would also say that people should not get too hung up on chasing a paper trail.

The Dog you have and what he does is the main thing.

A lot of Pit Bull men and Show Dog Fans exhibit a borderline obsession with tracing the lines of their Dogs.

I know APBT men who sit studying  names going back over 100 years and talking about what blood their Dogs are carrying.

All have to prove some kind of PURITY for themselves to be content with their Dog.

Its a Wise Man Who Knows His Own Father used to be a common saying before DNA tests.

How many of us could prove who our own Grandparents really were never mind our Dogs heritage.

And does it matter.

You could pick any mongrel Bitch from the pound and in 3 or 4 Generations be breeding Dogs that looked exactly like any Breed you choose or be doing as good a job as any well bred working Dog at ANY task you aim for.

BulliesofNC

It most definitely would matter. As an example you could have a long lineage of Bull Terriers that have earned a reputation based on their health, temperament, conformation, and structure. Many people who want to ensure they are getting a dog that has been bred properly and professionally have a certain bit respect and confidence in breeders who conduct genetic tests on their dogs, show them to prove their standards are in line, conduct DNA tests to prove their genetics are correct, and raise them with temperament and health in mind. Other breeders make none of these efforts and people purchasing a puppy from them are rolling the dice on the future health, temperament, and quality of a puppy they purchase from them unless they too knew the pedigree real well.

I too, dig deep into pedigrees and bloodlines as any breeder should if they care about the development of their own bloodlines. It saddens me when I'm looking up certain dogs from a pedigree and I started making notes on their recorded ages of death. Now a days it's hard for reputable bloodlines to hide from statistics on health issues causing premature death. There are still many bloodlines out there that would have me concerned with kidney, liver, and heart issues.

Now lets say we breed a Bull Terrier from a known bloodline with years of history for healthy well structured Bull Terriers and randomly picked a mate without doing thorough research. This would be a good way to risk health and other problems. This is exactly how breeds develop with more and more health problems over the years of inappropriate breeding. The German Shepard is a good example.

venger

To illustrate that point there was a famous case where a very well educated man who was also a breeder of Show Boxers was facing the changes in his Countrys law banning the Docking of Dogs tails.

To get round this he crossed one of his Boxers with a Corgi which is born with that kind of Bob tail naturally.

One of the pups from the litter was bred back to a Champion Boxer and not only did the pups look like Boxers at least one pup was considered Show Quality.

And born without a tail.

APBT fanciers get madly upset at any suggestion that not every drop of Blood in their Dog goes back to the first Bull Terriers brought in from England.

But one of the most influential breeders ever and a bit of a Rogue , Earl Tudor, was known to have imported a black Staffordshire Bull Terrier from Britain in the 70s.

He denied ever breeding from him.

But shortly after his Dogs were all being born Black and with big Staffie type heads.

The big names and influences for change in a lot of breeds never got hung up on purity beyond the point their Dogs and Bitches were breeding and producing true to type.

Whether that be looks or strictly working ability.

Its further down the food chain that obsession kicks in.

When looking at a Working Dog I will pay heed to the parents and esp their past record as producers.

But Granparents I dont pay too much care about,

Unless I have PERSONAL experience with some of them and am looking for a specific Trait I know of.

And anything further back I ignore.

Those names are just to keep the pup buyer happy.

BulliesofNC

I'll agree that 90% of concentration should be placed on the parents and grandparents as a good prediction of what to expect within a puppy in regard to temperament and looks. However, you can do as much studying as you want with the parents who may be 3 years old at the time of the puppy's birth. Your concern and disappoint with not looking beyond the first 10 years of a pedigree may become warranted when your puppy reaches 4 or 5 years old and you find out your dog is dying of kidney or liver failure and when you go back to research how old the grandparents are note that two of them died at an early age it just might open your eyes.

As far as making any attempts to research an APBT pedigree I wouldn't even consider it especially knowing that breed was ruined many years ago with so much cross contamination that the breed has become the #1 Mutt in the country. There will never be such a thing as a "Pure Bred" APBT and this is why they have never made it as an AKC Dog. Sure you can find some non-reputable kennel registry to provide papers on one saying they are a full blood APBT if you give them $20. However, the APBT has no breed standards. As a matter of fact that come in every color of the rainbow, range from 20 pounds to 120 pounds, different color eyes, different structures, some that are friendly, and some that are dangerous, and some that are simply unpredictable. In truth it would be impossible to write a standard on a APBT right now because of how they were bred. People now are crossing them with Bull Dogs for the short stocky appearance that is gaining popularity. Are they healthy and well bred? Absolutely not. This is good example of how a breed is ruined. It's also an example of why there are breed standards. Google APBT photos and you'll see thousands of photos of dogs that barely resemble themselves not to mention the differences within their character, health, temperament, etc. Again, the APBT is actually a Mutt not a purebred. Researching a pedigree on one especially through a fly by night kennel registry would be useless just as any registry claiming them to be "purebred" would be.